Cumulative Review Of Book Of Mormon Correlations

[maklelan]

OK, I'm not really done with the list, but I've run into some situations I would like some input on. Shall I list the various Hebraisms individually? If I lump them together I forsee the discussion fragmenting severely, as they can not all be addressed at once. If I do them seperately it may seem almost ridiculous, and I'm sure no one wants to go one by one through such a list. Let me know.

Shall I give examples of each correlation, or shall I assume everyone is aware of what they are and what will be cited? If I must track down examples for everything it will probably take way to long. Shall I find them upon request?

If this seems like way too much work let me know. If not enough people are interested to make it worth my time, let me know. If Taco bell introduces a fat free Nachos BellGrande, let me know.

[Uncle Dale]

OK, I'm not really done with the list, but I've run into some situations I would like some input on. Shall I list the various Hebraisms individually? If I lump them together I forsee the discussion fragmenting severely, as they can not all be addressed at once. If I do them seperately it may seem almost ridiculous, and I'm sure no one wants to go one by one through such a list. Let me know.

Shall I give examples of each correlation, or shall I assume everyone is aware of what they are and what will be cited? If I must track down examples for everything it will probably take way to long. Shall I find them upon request?

If this seems like way too much work let me know. If not enough people are interested to make it worth my time, let me know. If Taco bell introduces a fat free Nachos BellGrande, let me know.

I'm curious to see what you have compiled. Rather than listing each Hebraisms separately, could you

instead merely tabulate the most striking examples by their location in the BoM, and then indicate

which other sections of the text typically have occurences of these?

I would also be curious to know what portions of the BoM have few or no Hebraisms -- perhaps text that

reportedly originated with Jaredites or with the later Lamanites?

I'll look forward to reading through whatever you choose to post here.

Uncle Dale

[cksalmon]

Or, perhaps we could begin with those you find particularly striking.

Best.

CKS

[Uncle Dale]

bump

[cksalmon]

<First and last bump from me>

[Uncle Dale]

<First and last bump from me>

Last one for me also.

I guess the Mormons were wrong after all???

UD

[maklelan]

I'm sorry, guys. School is kicking my butt right now. I don't know when I'm gonna get on this. Perhaps I'll just post what I have so far and we can start with that.

Iâ??d like to lay a few ground rules first. I will list all that I can think of, and we will evaluate them one by one. Before we move on to the next one we will collectively give the point being discussed a 1 â?? 10 score, 10 being undeniable correlation, 1 being a completely false correlation. I believe we have the maturity and intelligence to be able to do this. I find some arguments weaker than others, and I know many of yâ??all recognize that some arguments are stronger than others. Rather than go in order you may select whichever one you would like to discuss once current subject has been closed. Weâ??ll go until we run out. Sound good?

Here we go. In no particular order

1. Jershon

2. Hebrew and Egyptian personal names (specifically Alma, Aha, Pahoran, Paanchi, Pacumeni, Mosiah, Sariah, Shule and Kish)

3. NHM and Wadi Sayq (I think their relationship is as interesting as their considerations in and of themselves, so I list them together)

4. Sheum

5. Seidelâ??s law (reversing order of quotation when quoting to set apart as quotation)

6. Word pairs (parallel pairs, synonymous pairs, stock word pairs, standing pairs, fixed pairs, A-B pairs, and sound pairs)

see http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=321

7. Chiasmus

8. If/and construction

9. Parenthetical insert

10. Construct state

11. Cognate accusative

12. Plural forms

[Chris Smith]

13. Irreantum

14. Gazelem

15. Symbolic meaning of Cardinal Directions

16. "prophetic lawsuit" literary forms in Mosiah 12-17, Jacob 2, Helaman 13

17. "coronation" literary form in Mosiah 1-6

18. prophetic commission and throne theophany in 1 Ne. 1

[maklelan]

I would also add

19. "East Sea" and "West Sea" from Popol Vu are Northern and Southern seas

[cksalmon]

Maklelanâ??

I think your groundrules are fine.

Let's start with an easy one: sheum. Prescinding from any worldview commitments (and taking as my definition of "correlation": "the mutual relation of two or more things, parts, etc."), I'd be tempted to rate this one a 10. The deciphering of the Akkadian language postdates JS's use of this term, after all. And while there are other vocalizations possible for this noun in Akkadian (e.g., "eum," without the "sh"), "sheum" is certainly attested and may even be the more common of the two.

Without prescinding from worldview commitments (that is, assuming that the BoM is not a divinely-revealed ancient manuscript), I'll still rate this one 9.5. It's a bullseye.

Best.

CKS

[Olavarria]

Book of Mormon warfare compared to mesoamerican(aztec/maya) warfare

Olive tree cultivation and Jacob 5

King Benjamin's speech and the Feast of Tabernacles

Eygptian descriptions of volcanism and 3 Nephi

Nephite econ. and the Laws of Eshunna

General Correlation with Mesoamerican archeology(2 civs, parralell rise and fall, chiapan cities abandoned in early 400's, volcanism and population hiccup at the meridian of time)

Samual the Lamanite and Alma's baktun prophecy

Nephi and his Asherah

Lehi's Dream and 1 Enoch

Book of Moses's Enoch section and Dead Sea Scroll's Enochian Book of Giants

Histroy of the Rechabites

Hey UNCLE DALE

1) None of the BoM names begin with F or contain q,x,w. Biblical names are the same. Mosiah 12:3 Alma 46:21

2)Use of parrallelisms including but not limited to chiasmus(Alma:36), Synonmous parallels(2 Nephi 9:52), anti thetic parrallels(1 Nephi 17:45 ) and repeated alternates.

3)Profetic speech formulas:the proclamation formula, oath formula, revelation formula, woe oracle

4)simile curses

5)compund prepositions:from before, from behind and to behind.

6)plural amplification: the English Bible transkaters turn these into the singual tense but Joseph Smith didn't. 2 Nephi 1:12, Moroni 1:19 and many more.

7)profetic perfect tense

8)Like biblical Hebrew the BoM lacks bi-, di-,multi- and poly- when numbering things. Rather it uses cardinals, ordinals, multiplicatives and fractions.

9)number without the noun: 1 Nephi 3:31, Alma 57:19, 2 Nephi 11:3, Alma 57:25

Often in biblical hebrew an expected noun does not follow a number. In order to fix this awkwardness, King James tranlaters inserted words like "pieces" or "shekels".

10) Construct state: "rod of Iron" not iron rod

11)Repitition of the defininate article: Unlike English, Hebrew repeats the definiate

for every noun. 2 Nephi 5:10

12) Cognate accusative: "dreamed a dream", "fear exeedingly with fear", "will curse even with a sore curse"

13)Many ands: Biblical Hebrew uses the conjunction "and" much more than english does, especially in historical narrative and prose but also in poetry and prose and direct speech.

14)repetition of the possesive pronoun: 3 Nephi 30:2, Mosh 11:3, Mosh 4:30, Alma 32:42, Alma 38:3, Helaman 3:14. The hebrew language repeats the possesive pronoun before each noun to which it refers.

15)Emphatic pronoun: Mosh 2:26, "amd I, even I,"

The following was taken from Don Parry's "Hebraisms and Other Ancient Peculiarities in the Book of Mormon".

[cksalmon]

Book of Mormon warfare compared to mesoamerican(aztec/maya) warfare

Olive tree cultivation and Jacob 5

King Benjamin's speech and the Feast of Tabernacles

Eygptian descriptions of volcanism and 3 Nephi

Nephite econ. and the Laws of Eshunna

General Correlation with Mesoamerican archeology(2 civs, parralell rise and fall, chiapan cities abandoned in early 400's, volcanism and population hiccup at the meridian of time)

Samual the Lamanite and Alma's baktun prophecy

Nephi and his Asherah

Lehi's Dream and 1 Enoch

Book of Moses's Enoch section and Dead Sea Scroll's Enochian Book of Giants

Histroy of the Rechabites

Hey UNCLE DALE

1) None of the BoM names begin with F or contain q,x,w. Biblical names are the same. Mosiah 12:3 Alma 46:21

2)Use of parrallelisms including but not limited to chiasmus(Alma:36), Synonmous parallels(2 Nephi 9:52), anti thetic parrallels(1 Nephi 17:45 ) and repeated alternates.

3)Profetic speech formulas:the proclamation formula, oath formula, revelation formula, woe oracle

4)simile curses

5)compund prepositions:from before, from behind and to behind.

6)plural amplification: the English Bible transkaters turn these into the singual tense but Joseph Smith didn't. 2 Nephi 1:12, Moroni 1:19 and many more.

7)profetic perfect tense

8)Like biblical Hebrew the BoM lacks bi-, di-,multi- and poly- when numbering things. Rather it uses cardinals, ordinals, multiplicatives and fractions.

9)number without the noun: 1 Nephi 3:31, Alma 57:19, 2 Nephi 11:3, Alma 57:25

Often in biblical hebrew an expected noun does not follow a number. In order to fix this awkwardness, King James tranlaters inserted words like "pieces" or "shekels".

10) Construct state: "rod of Iron" not iron rod

11)Repitition of the defininate article: Unlike English, Hebrew repeats the definiate

for every noun. 2 Nephi 5:10

12) Cognate accusative: "dreamed a dream", "fear exeedingly with fear", "will curse even with a sore curse"

13)Many ands: Biblical Hebrew uses the conjunction "and" much more than english does, especially in historical narrative and prose but also in poetry and prose and direct speech.

14)repetition of the possesive pronoun: 3 Nephi 30:2, Mosh 11:3, Mosh 4:30, Alma 32:42, Alma 38:3, Helaman 3:14. The hebrew language repeats the possesive pronoun before each noun to which it refers.

15)Emphatic pronoun: Mosh 2:26, "amd I, even I,"

The following was taken from Don Parry's "Hebraisms and Other Ancient Peculiarities in the Book of Mormon".

Hey Her Amunâ??

You're not playing by the groundrules.

Let's tackle them one at a time.

Best.

CKS

[Olavarria]

csk

my bad

[Chris Smith]

I think he was just adding to the list.

CKS, I haven't studied the Sheum case in particular. Why would there be an Akkadian word in the BoM?

-CK

[cksalmon]

I think he was just adding to the list.

CKS, I haven't studied the Sheum case in particular. Why would there be an Akkadian word in the BoM?

-CK

Good question.

Research it.

I don't believe in BoM.

But Akkadian "sheum" seems pretty well attested.

What do you think?

CKS

[Olavarria]

Why would there be an Akkadian word in the BoM?

Jaredites?

[maklelan]

Maklelanâ??

I think your groundrules are fine.

Let's start with an easy one: sheum. Prescinding from any worldview commitments (and taking as my definition of "correlation": "the mutual relation of two or more things, parts, etc."), I'd be tempted to rate this one a 10. The deciphering of the Akkadian language postdates JS's use of this term, after all. And while there are other vocalizations possible for this noun in Akkadian (e.g., "eum," without the "sh"), "sheum" is certainly attested and may even be the more common of the two.

Without prescinding from worldview commitments (that is, assuming that the BoM is not a divinely-revealed ancient manuscript), I'll still rate this one 9.5. It's a bullseye.

Best.

CKS

I too think this one's bullettproof. I think a 9.5 would be appropriate unless someone can give a good reason why it's there. If someone can produce that then I think it's a 10.

I tend to think that there was a little more contact going on between the Mesopotamians and Israel than we know, but I would have to look into it for a while to find a reason for that word showing up. I know the Hebrew word for temple - heikhal - comes from Akkadian e-gal, which means "big house". There are many such words that carry over. The problem is how to explain sheum sneaking in under the radar. If sheum was just a colloquial term borrowed from Mesopotamia that made the trip over then it makes perfect sense. It would have to have been used fairly often to have survived all the way to Zeniff, 400 years later, but he does say that he was taught in "all the language of the Nephites" and had a knowledge of their first land of inheritance. Assuming their were comprehensive records that covered agricultural concerns, the word wouldn't have had to have survived that long orally for Zeniff to have lifted it from a text. He still would have had to have known exactly what it was. If it was commonly grown and just never mentioned in the text then it fits just fine. Zeniff probably had the priesthood. His son, Noah, is considered by some to be the man who passed it on to Alma (if we conclude that an ordination by an unworthy priesthood holder is still valid, which I, personally, do). This would explain why he was trained in the language and the history, and why he kept his own record. Any other ideas?

[maklelan]

Does anyone wish to challenge the 9.5?

[Olavarria]

whats a 9.5?

[cksalmon]

whats a 9.5?

The correlation rating maklelan and I have agreed upon for BoM "sheum" (9.5/10).

maklelanâ??

Looks like we're the only interested parties (along wth Her Amun). But I'm ready to move on if you are. You pick next.

Best to you.

CKS

[consiglieri]

Hi, everyone,

I just saw on the FARMS page that Daniel C. Peterson wrote a piece in the new Review of Books that jams together in pellucid fashion the strongest arguments in favor of the ancientness of the restoration scriptures.

Of course, he left out some of my favorites dealing with Enoch materials in the Book of Moses, but that's what happens when Dan the Man doesn't listen to my editorial advice.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[cksalmon]

Hi, everyone,

I just saw on the FARMS page that Daniel C. Peterson wrote a piece in the new Review of Books that jams together in pellucid fashion the strongest arguments in favor of the ancientness of the restoration scriptures.

Of course, he left out some of my favorites dealing with Enoch materials in the Book of Moses, but that's what happens when Dan the Man doesn't listen to my editorial advice.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Link here, I believe.

[maklelan]

OK. I'll pick one that I'm nto convinced about yet. Chiasmus. I know the Book of Mormon is full of chiasmus, but some people claim the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price also contain chiasmus. I've looked at some of those claims and it seems kinda weak. A lot of them are very forced and very rudimentary. I've talked to Dr. Welch and he thinks they're not valid. I feel the chiasmus in the Book of Mormon is in a different league than the chiasmus in other purportedly revelatory texts (Book of the Law of the Lord, D&C, etc., etc.). Some think it's too complex to be Semitic. They point to Alma 36 and the entire book of I Nephi and say Hebrews didn't go to that much trouble. Irrespective, I think their presence has not been sufficiently explained by anyone who believes Joseph Smith, Martin Harris, Solomon Spaulding or anyone else concocted the Book of Mormon.

[cksalmon]

OK. I'll pick one that I'm nto convinced about yet. Chiasmus. I know the Book of Mormon is full of chiasmus, but some people claim the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price also contain chiasmus. I've looked at some of those claims and it seems kinda weak. A lot of them are very forced and very rudimentary. I've talked to Dr. Welch and he thinks they're not valid. I feel the chiasmus in the Book of Mormon is in a different league than the chiasmus in other purportedly revelatory texts (Book of the Law of the Lord, D&C, etc., etc.). Some think it's too complex to be Semitic. They point to Alma 36 and the entire book of I Nephi and say Hebrews didn't go to that much trouble. Irrespective, I think their presence has not been sufficiently explained by anyone who believes Joseph Smith, Martin Harris, Solomon Spaulding or anyone else concocted the Book of Mormon.

This may be a bit broad.

Is there a specific instance(s) of chiasmus in BoM that you could point us toward, against which we could attempt to measure its correlative worth?

Best.

CKS

[Chris Smith]

Whoa, whoa... Just a sec. I want to weigh in on the sheum thing still. I did the research that CKS suggested I do. What I came up with was the sheum was an Akkadian word from the third millennium BCE. After that time, it was spelled and pronounced differently (Sorenson, American Setting p. 186). Sorenson therefore suggests that the term was brought over by the Jaredites. The trouble with this suggestion, of course, is that Mosiah 9:9 places the term on the lips of a Mulekite who has been instructed in the Nephite language some 2000 years later. That this word could survive 2,000 years of transmission by Jaredites-- who (if FARMS is to be believed) lived among and interacted regularly with other Mesoamerican cultures-- is frankly hard to believe. Even if it survives transmission, it must also survive the Ramah genocide and somehow pass into either Nephite or Mulekite usage. While it is remarkable to find that a Book of Mormon word that refers to an agricultural crop of some kind has a perfect parallel and a similar usage in an authentically ancient language, the means of transmission simply seems too outrageous to be believable.

Not to be a downer, but I give sheum no more than a 6. I can conceive of much better parallels than this.

-CK