Jehovah vs. Elohim

[David Bokovoy]

In view of a recent question regarding my role as the OSACOTIRR, I was reminded that it

[Jerubaal]

David, I'm wondering what your opinion is on Joseph Smith's translation of Genesis 1:1

[T]he doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. . . . I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can. An unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew. Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aushamayeen vehau auraits, rendered by King James' translators, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' I want to analyze the word Berosheit. Rosh, the head; Sheit, a grammatical termination; the Baith was not originally put there when the inspired man wrote it, but it has been since added by an old Jew. Baurau signifies to bring forth; Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods. It read first, 'In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods,' or, as others have translated it, 'The head of the Gods called the Gods together.' I want to show a little learning as well as other fools. . . . The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, 'The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image.' I once asked a learned Jew, 'If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?' He replied, 'That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible.' He acknowledged I was right. . . . In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through

[Uncle Dale]

[Markk]

Hi David,

Would you say it would be equally embarrassing for JS and other LDS GA's to teach that Gods personal name was Elohim?

Just a thought?

Mark

John 1:12

[structurecop]

Hi David,

Would you say it would be equally embarrassing for JS and other LDS GA's to teach that Gods personal name was Elohim?

Just a thought?

Mark

John 1:12

No, considering that predating the Hebrew word Elohim was the Canaanite El, which was a very specific god and a personal name.

[Marvelous]

My understanding, which admittedly is limited, is that Elohim was not a personal name in the way that YWHW was.

[juliann]

Would you say it would be equally embarrassing for JS and other LDS GA's to teach that Gods personal name was Elohim?

Elohim has been used as personal name and a group name in LDS theology. You will have to point out why that is embarrassing rather than biblical.

As more and more literature piles up (and it isn't coming from Mormons!), I am wondering what the inerrantists are going to end up doing.

[structurecop]

My understanding, which admittedly is limited, is that Elohim was not a personal name in the way that YWHW was.

That's what King Josiah would lead you to believe.

[David Bokovoy]

Mark,

==Would you say it would be equally embarrassing for JS and other LDS GA's to teach that Gods personal name was Elohim?

As already explained, Elohim is both a personal name for God in the Bible and the generic word

[johnny]

David Bokovoy,

I simply love how radical monotheists try to deceive readers by calling the gods mentioned in the Old Testament

[selek]

Would you consider Satan one of the gods in the Old Testament?

Would you consider Moses one of the gods in the Old Testament?

In the New Testament Satan is consider a god and Exod 7 says Moses is a god.

2Cor 4

[4] In whom the god (Satan) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Exod 7

[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

No. In the instance mentioned, Satan is referred to as a god only in the same sense that an idol is a god. A false god. Unfortunately, there are far too many people caught up in their idolatry, and the father of all lies leads them about by the nose.

In the incident in Exodus, Moses is being set in authority over Pharoah (one translation specifies "as God"), with Aaron as his speaker (remember Moses had a speech impediment).

As is stated earlier in the same book:

Ex. 4: 16.

16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

You also neglected to mention the rest of the story:

Exodus 7:2-6

2 Thou shalt speak all that I acommand thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

3 aAnd I will harden Pharaoh

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Johnny,

===Maybe the plurality indicates multiply persons and not multiply Gods like LDS scripture reveals.

So, they

[johnny]

selek,

It helps to try and understand them instead of cherry-picking the things you can distort.

That was my point ... Satan and Moses are gods.

You said "Satan is referred to as a god only in the same sense that an idol is a god. A false god"

and You said "Moses is being set in authority over Pharoah (one translation specifies "as God")".

Call for References. Please demonstrate why your interpretation is superior to that of learned theologians and scholars skilled in ancient Greek and Hebrew. Please also explain why your insight trumps the word of God.

What is your interpretation of Isa 53:4,6 ... Is Elohim and Jehovah the same God?

Call For References. Please show the scriptures which show that God was alone, and that the "Word" and "Wisdom" were not separate personages represented by iconic titles. Your argument relies heavily upon your own interpretation of the Godhead. Please show conclusively that your interpretation is superior, let alone authoritative.

My intreptation is consistent with the Catholic Church teachings and the Early Church Fathers (see below).

CCC292 -- Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity. The creative action of the Son and the Spirit is inseparably one with that of the Father. God made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom, by the Son and the Spirit who, so to speak, are his hands.

CCC317 -- God alone created the universe without any help.

CCC212 -- God made heaven and earth, there are no other gods besides him.

Athenagoras (Plea for the Christians 10:2

[johnny]

David Bokovoy,

Thanks for the clarification.

For further clairifcation see Deut 10

Deut 10

[17] For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

For all of your theological posturing, God is not alone. He

[Zakuska]

That was my point ... Satan and Moses are gods.

Has Johnny gone off the deep end?

I always knew your where a Polytheist at heart Johhny!

[johnny]

Zakuska,

I always knew your where a Polytheist at heart Johhny!

I believe in one God who is God of gods (Deut 10.17).

[Zakuska]

Hey So do we!

Gen. 19: 24

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Two YHWH's?

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Hey So do we!

Do you beleive in three Gods or one God ... I believe in one God?

Joseph Smith taught "three Gods".

Jehovah is not a seperate God from Elohim?

Two YHWH's?

Psalm 110 reveals two Lord's and that Jehovah(LORD) is the Father.

[maklelan]

My intreptation is consistent with the Catholic Church teachings and the Early Church Fathers (see below).

CCC292 -- Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity. The creative action of the Son and the Spirit is inseparably one with that of the Father. God made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom, by the Son and the Spirit who, so to speak, are his hands.

CCC317 -- God alone created the universe without any help.

CCC212 -- God made heaven and earth, there are no other gods besides him.

Athenagoras (Plea for the Christians 10:2

[johnny]

maklelan,

So your doctrines are not in the Bible,

My doctrine are in the Bible, earlier I posted:

Isa 44

[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Prov 8

[12] I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

[selek]

Five will get you ten this winds up being another twenty-eight page thread of Johnny ignoring what everyone else keeps trying to point out to him.

[maklelan]

Those scriptures have absoluteyl nothing to do with an incorporeal, consubstantive, metaphysically incomprehensible God. The God you have pointed out with your Fathers' quotes is a 100% pagan plagiarism. The God you paint with the above scriptures is the same God we believe in. You can't believe in both.

P.S. Are you gonna leave your Catholic Fathers' faith danglin'?

[johnny]

maklelan,

Those scriptures have absoluteyl nothing to do with an incorporeal, consubstantive, metaphysically incomprehensible God.

This thread is not about "incorporeal, consubstantive, metaphysically incomprehensible God".

The God you paint with the above scriptures is the same God we believe in.

Who is your God ... is it Elohim or is it Jehovah?

[Zakuska]

Well Johhny's got a problem with a contradicting Bible again.

1) Which YHWH was alone while spreading out the heaven and the earth?

Proverbs 8

[maklelan]

maklelan,

Those scriptures have absoluteyl nothing to do with an incorporeal, consubstantive, metaphysically incomprehensible God.

This thread is not about "incorporeal, consubstantive, metaphysically incomprehensible God".

The God you paint with the above scriptures is the same God we believe in.

Who is your God ... is it Elohim or is it Jehovah?

Then don't bring it up.

You said your interpretation was consistent with that ofthe Father's, which is an open assertion that their interpretation is 1) biblical and 2) correct. I am showing you that their interpretation is 1) pagan and 2) incorrect. Your consistency with their teachings testifies with force that your strict monotheism is not the result of scriptures at all, but a plagiarism of Platonic and Stoi ideas abut the "One God". That "One God" is anthropomorphic and plural thoughout the entirety of independent Jewish and Christian thought. It only changes to monotheism when pagan ideas take over their philosophies.