The Nicene Creed

[Joseph Antley]

The Nicene Creed, the document that was part of the foundation of Christian orthodoxy for over a thousand years.

Does it represent the original Christian beliefs? Is it evidence of an apostasy?

Discuss.

[Apex]

The Nicene Creed, the document that was part of the foundation of Christian orthodoxy for over a thousand years.

Does it represent the original Christian beliefs? Is it evidence of an apostasy?

Discuss.

It doesnt represent origional christian beliefs, just those that won out with the emporer. Here is a good link.

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/trinity.htm

[johnny]

Antley,

As I said in the Apostolic Succession thread (see link below), the Nicene Creed is not evidence of apostasy because it is completely consist with what scripture reveals.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=374035

[johnny]

Apex,

The Roman Emperor Constantine convoked the council. Constantine took no part in the deliberations of the Council; it was entirely an affair of the Church

[Joseph Antley]

Apex,

The Roman Emperor Constantine convoked the council. Constantine took no part in the deliberations of the Council; it was entirely an affair of the Church

[livy111us]

Here is some interesting info. on the Nicene Creed:

[livy111us]

There is a joke that goes well with the topic. It goes: Jesus then said to Peter "And who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, God-incarnate, homoousia with the father, God from God, light from light, begotten not made, having two natures in a hypostatic union yet not confusing the two."

And Jesus said unto him

[johnny]

Antley ,

It should be noted that more than 300 bishops attended the Council of Nicaea and that the Bishop of Rome recognized the council as ecumenical.

[livy111us]

Why is it that Constantine headed the council when Sylvester, who should have led it, was not even there?

[johnny]

livy111us,

What is even more interesting is that it is still used in today's Christian Churches and that it is consistent with scriputre.

The better joke is that the creed decided for the Church the answer to the question Christ posed to his disciples: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matt. 16:15).

The creeds reveals that God is Man and Man is God in the Person of Jesus Christ just like John 1, 1Tim, and 1John reveals:

John 1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

1Tim.1

[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[2] Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Tim.3

[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1John 1

[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

[Bsix]

I actually think that most of the Nicene Creed is reliable doctrine. However, in regards to it's trinitarian teachings, it is evidence of the apostasy -- specifically the heretical concept of the Trinity.

It is a perfect demonstration of how heretical doctrine evolves over time and eventually becomes orthodoxy.

It is an example of how secular government becomes embroiled in Church doctrinal affairs.

The manner in which the doctrine was decided also tends to suggests a church in apostasy. The council was attended by only 250-318 of the 1,800 Bishops of the church. The issues before the synod were decided by the decidedly heretical process of debate and voting (by only a minority of the Bishops of the Church.) The council was convoked and presided over by the Roman Emporor Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, and held in the Imperial Palace.

The Nicene Creed is the fruits of a minority council controlled by a Roman Emporor who was not formally a Christian. (He was baptized only on his death-bed.)

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

livy111us,

Constantine did not head the council, he convoked the council. Pope Sylvester had designated Hosius, as well as the two legates, to represent him.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706eaw.asp

[johnny]

Bsix,

Please provide the scriptures to show how it is heretical ... Below is a link to the creed.

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/faith_beliefs/nicene_creed/

It is an example of development or maturing doctrines (see link below).

http://www.catholic.com/library/can_dogma_develop.asp

Secular government was not embroiled in the Church doctrinal affairs.

The manner in which the doctrine was decided is similiar to the council described in Acts 15 that settled a dispute.

Acts 15

[2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

[6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

[7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

[15] And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

[28] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

[32] And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

[livy111us]

Johnny,

It's good to see you here again. It's been a while. I've been on a haitus also.

I realize that there were representatives there, no mention is made of their having taken active role in the proceedings. In fact, all of the Bishops present debated the matter and signed the creed without even checking to if Sylvester would concur.

[zippythepinhead]

The Nicene Creed has much truth in it. But is also has error in it. The question is was the conference organized by God or man? If it was organized by God then we should follow it and accept it as canon. If it was organized by man, under the authority of man, then regardless of preserved truths in it, the work is a result of men and should not be counted as divine revelation from God.

I believe the latter.

[livy111us]

[johnny]

livy111us,

It is great to be exchanging ideas with you again ... Work and family have been keeping me busy these days.

What is important is that the council was ecumenical. Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world under the presidency of the pope or his legates. See link below for more information.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm

[johnny]

zippythepinhead,

What error is in it ... please provide sciptures to support your words.

The council was called by the man Constantine and the council was recognized by Christ's vicar as ecumenical.

[johnny]

livy111us,

The Roman Emperor Constantine was not able to ordain Bishops.

[livy111us]

Johnny,

According to scholars, he was.

[Joseph Antley]

zippythepinhead,

What error is in it ... please provide sciptures to support your words.

Let's try to keep this thread to focus on the Creed and early Christians opinions on it. A debate about the relationship of the Godhead deserves its own thread.

[johnny]

livy111us,

Could you provide a link to Eusebius, The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine, pg. 13 ... thanks.

The link below to Eusebius Church History does not show your quote ...

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm

[zippythepinhead]

zippythepinhead,

What error is in it ... please provide sciptures to support your words.

The council was called by the man Constantine and the council was recognized by Christ's vicar as ecumenical.

I would if I could. Nothing in the Bible, BOM, Pearl of Great Price or D and C would validate it. Especially the second paragraph

[livy111us]

Johnny,

Thanks for catching that. It is in the introduction to Eusebius that this quote is from. I mistook it for the writings of the said person.

[johnny]

zippythepinhead,

Try John 1, 1Tim, and 1John ... these scriptures would validate the words "true God from true God ... one in being with the Father" found in the second paragraph of the creed.