D&C 132? Polygamy...

[AmariYah]

O.K. folks this is a true story, and I am not making this up simply to question your religion or devotion to Joseph Smith. In spite of my distaste for much of your religion, I am all American and not only believe in freedom of religion but would even fight to defend your right to believe whatever you choose! And even till this day I find many LDS individuals to be very fine and honorable people.

The primary reason by I left the LDS church was because of the history and "revelations" about plural marriage. I believe it is recorded in D&C 132?

After reading several histories (all of which were LDS sources) I began to question the heart and motives of Joseph Smith. Here is a young man who is building a rather powerful position and reputation in a new religion, and who consequently has a great deal of power over his flock. Joseph Smith notices some of the fine young women who are the children of various church members... (and after reading and weighing all of the available evidence) it is my impression and belief that this impulse inside Joseph is nothing more than the natual human lust which many of us men experience when we see an attractive woman. According to the histories I read at the time even his wife Emma knew in her heart or hearts that this was wrong and not of God, nevertheless she submitted to her husband. (which is the commonly accepted appraoch of the day.) Rather than being honest and calling this sin what it was, I believe that Joseph Smith received a "revelation" after the fact of his lusting to justify and cover his sin. And this only opened the door for more sin and deception. For many men, who do not honor the Lord Jesus Christ and his word, this would be the ultimate set up... To create a religion where you can pick and choose all of the most attractive young women to be your "concubines" or "wives" thereby enabling yourself to really indulge the flesh yet with the appearance of remaining holy and true. Needless to say this realization destroyed any "testimony" I may have had and made me disgusted with this individual whom many people nearly worship.

(Feel free to comment on any of these points!)

Once the severity and reality of this awful truth started to hit me I went to every single adult LDS priesthood leader I could find from Bishops and former Bishops to the Stake President and even had the opportunity to talk personally with 2 different men of the 70. I simply asked them based upon their study and understanding of the scriptures if the plural marriage doctrine was truly of God, & I qualified it with this; acknowledging that the official church position is no polygamy, however if in the future it were no longer illegal and all man made restrictions were lifted... Do you believe that this is a true doctrine and principal from the Lord of lords and would you like to practice it??? Every single one of them without fail answered YES! It was at this point that I knew that the religion founded by Joseph Smith was a deception and based upon false prophecies and lies, because I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that this was most certainly not the will or teaching of the King of Kings and the Lord of lords. (you may ask how did I know this without a doubt... Well- let's just say that it was a whole lot more than a simple burning in my bosom, although that was also iin play!)

Of coarse many of you disagree with me or you wouldn't still be members of the LDS religion- but I would like to ask you the same question I asked these other LDS men...

#1. Do you believe that polygamy is a doctrine and principal of Almighty God &

#1a. would you like to practice it if there were no man made restrictions?

and if I may add another couple of questions;

#2. From your study do you believe that Joseph Smith practiced any "polygamy" beofre his alleged "revelation" and without telling his wife Emma?

& finally #3. Do you believe that Emma disagreed with this alleged "revealtion" about polygamy?

Thank you! Amariah

[David Bokovoy]

How to say this without seeming too harsh?

Clearly you have formulated an opinion that has led to leaving the Church of Jesus Christ based upon a faulty understanding of LDS history/theology.

I would assume that prior to formulating an opinion on this matter, interested parties would first read Danel W. Bachman

[alter idem]

Of coarse many of you disagree with me or you wouldn't still be members of the LDS religion- but I would like to ask you the same question I asked these other LDS men...

#1. Do you believe that polygamy is a doctrine and principal of Almighty God &

#1a. would you like to practice it if there were no man made restrictions?

and if I may add another couple of questions;

#2. From your study do you believe that Joseph Smith practiced any "polygamy" beofre his alleged "revelation" and without telling his wife Emma?

& finally #3. Do you believe that Emma disagreed with this alleged "revealtion" about polygamy?

                    Thank you! Amariah 

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes

1a. No

2. Yes, If you are referring to practicing it before he revealed it to others (If you left the church over it, I'm certain you don't believe it was given to him in the early 1830's as I do) and Yes to the second part of this question.

3. Yes

Your welcome.

[Familyof4]

#1a. would you like to practice it if there were no man made restrictions?

My answer is YESSS!! Who wouldnt....would my wife let me?? NO!!

[Dale]

Helen Mar Kimball-Todd Comptom admits her relationship with Joseph was entirely platonic. And some of the earthly wives it's believed by many they were earthly. Others I am convinced were platonic sealings.

I have seen the Essay on Happiness Joseph Smith Jr. supposedly had delivered to Nancy Rigdon. One view is that it's a fake. The JSFP section of the http://www.restorationbookstore.org has an online book & articles has one in particular on that essay. Another possibility is Nancy Rigdon & her brother mistook it as an improper proposal when in fact all they were trying to get her involved with was a platonic sealing. Sidney Rigdon took Joseph's side & never accused Joseph Smith of proposing an improper relationship with his daughter.

At this time none of the alleged eight children of Joseph Smith have been proven to be Joseph Smith's. Three on the list have been proven by DNA studies not to have been Joseph's. But DNA studies are continuing off & on & I await the results like everyone else. But if Joseph Smith really had 33 literal wives I am mighty surprised he had no children by them. I see this as evidence the motive for the practice was not lust but sincere religious belief.

D.& C. presents what purports to be a basic explanation for what supposedly went on. I do not believe Joseph Smith would have authored such a document if he was insincere about it. I do not believe myself that a man is a bad man just for believing & practicing polygamy. I believe Joseph Smith was a good man, and good men sometimes practice polygamy.

[elect_lady]

1. No, I do not believe that polygamy had anything to do with God.

1a. I absolutely would not take part in something so immoral. IF my husband ever proposed to do something like that, I would divorce him so fast his head would spin.

2. He definately practiced polygamy before he revealed it to others, and he did it dishonestly behind his wife's back.

3. Polygamy caused Emma great pain. She did NOT agree with her husband collecting young girls and other men's wives. She did not like the fact that he had married all of her best friends, either.

[Dale]

The polyandrous cases I have made an in-depth study of. They look like platonic sealings to me. I only heard Emma had knowledge of a few single women that were sealed to her husband. How is practicing polygamy with earthly wives she had knowledge of being dishonest towards Emma? How is practicing a platonic sealing dishonestly practicing genuine polygamy behind Emmas back?

Honestly a lot of what Todd Comptom published in his In Sacred Lonliness is not substantiated. In the Temple Lot case Joseph Noble had claimed knowledge of a honey-moon between Joseph & Louisa Beaman. (In Sacred Lonliness pg. pg.59) But tell me whyy Mr. Comptom witholds the fact the decision of Judge Phillips went against Joseph Nobles 1892 testimony? Everything from this case gets cited but that decision. I think some of these scholars must be embarrassed by it, or think they can ignore it for some other reason.

Another example-Benjamin F. Johnson & Almira had claimed Hyrum Smith had approved of her sealing to Joseph Smith. On Sacred Lonlines pg 297 Benjamin has Hyrum have a conversation with Almira that I am convinced is perjury on Benjamins part. I do know she was not Josephs earthly wife. How do I know? Todd Comptom has the date of this marriage as April 2-22 1843. (In Sacred Lonliness pg.6) I stumbled upon a date out of Mormon Enigma which has Hyrum Smith not converted & not in the know about polygamy until after May 15th 1843. (Mormon Enigma by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery pg. 141(Second Edition) The presence of Hyrum Smith in their testimony is anacronistic because it has him involved far earlier than he could have been. Delcina Johnsons claim falls with Almiras because it was based on Benjamin F. Johnsons questionable account..

In the Fanny Alger section of Todd Comptoms book he cites from Mosiah Hancocks Auto-Biography to prove Levi arranged Fanny Algers marriage to Joseph. A copy of this source is online at the Book of Abraham Project reachable through FAIRs links. I noticed in it he has Levi presenting a purported prediction of Joseph Smith Jr. that his Joseph Smith 3rd would become a false prophet to his son Mosiah. If that's a fabricated prediction invented many years after the event & in Utah this is not a reliable source. I treat Fanny Alger as an affair of Joseph & not a bonified plural wife.

I can take you through section after section of Todd Comptoms book & show you what he missed. I know he's sincere as are all these other historians I read. I enjoy the books. They give me access to information I wouldn't otherwise have access to. But I learned to take what they say with a smile.

[Geaux LSU]

1. No, I do not believe that polygamy had anything to do with God.

...snip for brevity...

I saw the following statement posted on another thread and I wonder what your reply is:

God's Chosen People - The 12 tribes of Israel were a result of polygamy - Jacob and his 4 wives.

We know polygamy was definitely not limited to Jacob in the Bible. Many prophets practiced polygamy. Therefore, how can polygamy "not have anything to do with God?"

[Hawkeye]

#1. Do you believe that polygamy is a doctrine and principal of Almighty God

Yup

#1a. would you like to practice it if there were no man made restrictions?

and if I may add another couple of questions;

Firstly, it would not be my decision, I really don;t think it was Joseph Smiths either if you carefulyl read 132.. It was basically an honest question Joseph got an answer to, but then HAD to live by the knowledge he was given.

Secondly, No I would not practice, and I fully expect God and I would have some words if this ever came up to say the least. My life is with my wife alone.

#2. From your study do you believe that Joseph Smith practiced any "polygamy" beofre his alleged "revelation" and without telling his wife Emma?

The formal revelation came after the practice started, see the summary comments in the current D&C. The revelation itself came right about when it all actually started. (a matter of perspective)

#3. Do you believe that Emma disagreed with this alleged "revealtion" about polygamy?

I would be willing to say she was not thrilled and likely needed a bit of convincing (the implications of 132:54 comes to mind)

[1dc]

O.K. folks . . .

Speaking of true stories, have you read Vilate Kimball's? Below is a part of the story I found on the Net. The fuller portion told in "Remembering Joseph is much better as it provides a fuller context.

Vilate Kimball on Plural Marriage

Submitted by Meghan Decker - We have had a couple of articles in our local paper recently which misrepresent the church's stand on plural marriage. Because the one today said erroneously that we believe it is essential to entering the celestial kingdom, I am sure we will be discussing this tomorrow in seminary. I've read through the info in the manual, but I also wanted to find the story of Heber C. Kimball and his wife Vilate, since it shows so well the trial of faith that was required to accept and live this principle. I found it through Gospel Link 2001, and I've copied it below, in case anyone else wants to use it. This is from Helen Mar Kimball's account (a daughter).

" My mother had noticed a change in his looks and appearance, and when she enquired the cause, he tried to evade her question, saying it was only her imagination, or that he was not feeling well, etc. But it so worked upon his mind that his anxious and haggard looks betrayed him daily and hourly, and finally his misery became so unbearable that it was impossible to control his feelings. He became sick in body, but his mental wretchedness was too great to allow of his retiring at night, and instead of going to bed he would walk the floor; and the agony of his mind was so terrible that he would wring his hands and weep, beseeching the Lord with his whole soul to be merciful and reveal to his wife the cause of his great sorrow, for he himself could not break his vow of secrecy. His anguish and my mother's, were indescribable and when unable to endure it longer, she retired to her room, where with a broken and contrite heart, she poured out her grief to [God]. . . .My father's heart was raised at the same time in supplication, and while pleading as one would plead for life, the vision of her mind was opened, and she saw the principle of Celestial Marriage illustrated in all its beauty and glory, together with the great exaltation and honor it would confer upon her in that immortal and celestial sphere if she would but accept it and stand in her place by her husband's side. She was also shown the woman he had taken to wife, and contemplated with joy the vast and boundless love and union which this order would bring about, as well as the increase of kingdoms, power, and glory extending throughout the eternities, worlds without end.Her soul was satisfied and filled with the Spirit of God. With a countenance beaming with joy she returned to my father, saying, "Heber, what you have kept from me the Lord has shown me."She related the scene to me and to many others, and told me she never saw so happy a man as father was, when she described the vision and told him she was satisfied and knew that it was from God. She covenanted to stand by him and honor the principle, which covenant she faithfully kept, and though her trials were often heavy and grievous to bear, her integrity was unflinching to the end."

Helen Mar Whitney, Women's Exponent 1882, cited in BYU Studies, vol. 15 (1974-1975), p. 461

[MsOpinionated]

Wow, somebody knows how to make an entrance. The always popular polygamy topic.

Could someone maybe explain how a woman who is already married, could be sealed to JS? This puzzles me. I know that you have time and eternity sealings, right? Can you marry someone for time, and then be sealed to someone else for eternity? If the women who were sealed to JS, whether platonic or not, were already married, did this pose a problem for the current spouse?

LOL, I'm sorry for all the questions...I'm just wondering how it all works.

Thanks a bunch.

[Dale]

I am Community of Christ/RLDS. I do not believe polygamy was of God. I do not believe that Joseph Smith is placed in that negative a light for believing & practicing polygamy quite moderately. Platonic sealings are quite a moderate version of actual polygamy. Certainly he is not comparable to David & Solomon. Looks to me like he would be more comparable to small time polygamists of the Old Testament. I would say Joseph Smith mostly chose celibacy over an active polygamy lifestyle with the wives.

Todd Comptom has admitted Helen Mar KImball & Joseph Smith had only a platonic relationship.

A non-platonic example of a plural marriage of Joseph Smith would be that of him Emily & Eliza Partridge. Though the decision in the Temple Lot case atleast legally exonerated Joseph Smith of the claim they were his wives. This gets left out of books that cite the case as if the claims of the wives had never been successfully challenged. This is untrue as the claims fell a part in court.

Mariah & Sarah Lawrence never confirmed they were Joseph's wives. One of them denied it. One died before Emily & Eliza Partridge got their stories printed.

Melissa Lot Willis & Lucy Walker had appeared in the Temple Lot case. He felt it uncharitable of accusing them of bearing false witness. But legally he felt they had not status as wives under U.S. law. He admitted the possibility of polygamous affairs, but no legal guilt on Joseph's part.

Eliza R. Snows claim had also gotten rejected in court.

Why?

1.The so-called marriages had produced no children.

2.He had been shown documents signed by the witnesses that denied polygamy was going on in Nauvoo at the time. This in his mind was perjury & invalidated whatever legal claims they may have had to being his wives.

3.I think also he was concerned by seeing only affidavits & witnesses & no marriage certificates.

4.James Whithead one of Joseph's secretary's under oath in the case claimed that he had seen the original of D.&C. 132 in manuscript form. He said D.&C. 132 had been altered to make it say what it did not. He was also interviewed by Joseph Smith 3rd & he indicated the original had to do with platonic sealings. Others stated things that contradicted him. But I suspect the judge felt D.&C. 132 could not be established as an authentic document because of conflicts he had heard about the originals content. My sources would be the Temple Lot Case & Memoirs of Joseph Smith 3rd both reprinted by the Restoration Book Store.

All of the wives of Joseph Smith respected him. None of them treated themselves as his victims. If Joseph & Emma Smith had conflicts over her husbands more eccentric beliefs to me their conflicts are not much worse than some in a non-polygamous household. Emma never treated herself as a victim of her husband. To her death she had never made any statement that showed disrespect for her husband. She believed in her husbands prophetic claims.

I do think I would say Old Testament polygamy was not condoned by God but tolerated. Though D.&C. 132 interprets the Old Testament differently.

[Dale]

Wow, somebody knows how to make an entrance. The always popular polygamy topic.

Could someone maybe explain how a woman who is already married, could be sealed to JS? This puzzles me. I know that you have time and eternity sealings, right? Can you marry someone for time, and then be sealed to someone else for eternity? If the women who were sealed to JS, whether platonic or not, were already married, did this pose a problem for the current spouse?

LOL, I'm sorry for all the questions...I'm just wondering how it all works.

Thanks a bunch.

There's 11 wives on polyandry side of Joseph Smith's listed plural marriages. THere was no break, or interuption in the existing relationship. Joseph Smiths behavior towards to women was platonic unless someone can prove to be otherwise. I have Tood Comptoms book & feels he has nothing that indicates Joseph's behavior with those women was improper.

My guess as to the purpose of such sealings is pretty simple. Spiritually adopting another mans children as your own was a way to "raise up seed" to the Lord without violating good morals. This is what I propose Sylvia Sessions told her daughter Josephine on her death bead & not that she was the biological daughter as her daughter assumed. I understand DNA studies have been conducted on Josephine for six years. They have not been able to authenticate her claim, and may never be able. If they do I will be surprised.

LDS President Heber J. Grants mother had been considered a son of Joseph Smith. His mother had been only selected & sealed to Joseph after his death. Do not have a source on this. I got a vague quote from B.H. Roberts, but have not seen the original. I figure the terminology ambiguity confused the daughter & she took her mothers testimony as biological.

Basically the other nine I consider platonic sealings also. Words like "time & eternity" were thrown into the ceremony. But eternity not mortality was the expected time for the time part to begin.

Does this explain it? I am sure it caused a problem. But as long as the existing relationship was respected they mostly had no problem with Joseph.

Todd Comptom admits Joseph Smiths relationship with Patty Sessions was platonic.

[Geaux LSU]

...snip for brevity...

I do think I would say Old Testament polygamy was not condoned by God but tolerated. Though D.&C. 132 interprets the Old Testament differently.

Might I ask you why you believe OT polygamy was not condoned by God but tolerated? Is tolerance not the same as condoning - especially when it came to his prophets? Would this not be a grievous crime according to the laws of God and not make the prophet worthy of "striking down?" ( a fallen prophet?)?

Out of curiosity, what do members and non-members alike believe the ultimate purpose of polygamy to be. I am not wanting to limit this question to Joseph Smith, but the practice itself in all of Christianity.

If the Church is to restore all things would polygamy not also be one of those things? If so, why? If not, why?

[charity]

Geaux LSU wrote: "Out of curiosity, what do members and non-members alike believe the ultimate purpose of polygamy to be. I am not wanting to limit this question to Joseph Smith, but the practice itself in all of Christianity. If the Church is to restore all things would polygamy not also be one of those things? If so, why? If not, why?"

My opinion, not shared by many LDS, I am sure, but you asked, and here it is for what it is worth. From my experience, there are more women who wish to be totally committed to the Gospel than there are men. This is irrespective of the ratio of men to women on the planet. There are many active women with inactive husbands, and single sisters who have never married. I do not see similar numbers of men with inactive wives, and single men who cannot find a woman to marry. There can be no single individuals who receive exaltation. If this is the case, some totally committed men are going to have to have more than one wife, so all the women can have a husband. That is the ultimate purpose of polygamy as I see it.

And if all things are to be restored, then it would follow that at some point, polygamy will be also. I don't know when. The Millenium?

[Geaux LSU]

Geaux LSU wrote: "Out of curiosity, what do members and non-members alike believe the ultimate purpose of polygamy to be. I am not wanting to limit this question to Joseph Smith, but the practice itself in all of Christianity. If the Church is to restore all things would polygamy not also be one of those things? If so, why? If not, why?"

My opinion, not shared by many LDS, I am sure, but you asked, and here it is for what it is worth. From my experience, there are more women who wish to be totally committed to the Gospel than there are men. This is irrespective of the ratio of men to women on the planet. There are many active women with inactive husbands, and single sisters who have never married. I do not see similar numbers of men with inactive wives, and single men who cannot find a woman to marry. There can be no single individuals who receive exaltation. If this is the case, some totally committed men are going to have to have more than one wife, so all the women can have a husband. That is the ultimate purpose of polygamy as I see it.

And if all things are to be restored, then it would follow that at some point, polygamy will be also. I don't know when. The Millenium?

Charity,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. As a follow up to your answer I would like to ask you if you believe this to also be the ultimate reason behind polygamy in the OT days?

[Jaybear]

David:

Clearly you have formulated an opinion that has led to leaving the Church of Jesus Christ based upon a faulty understanding of LDS history/theology.

...

In my opinion, anyone who has not read Bachman

[awyatt]

Jaybear said: Perhaps instead of making an offensive appeal to authority, you could provide some substance to your criticism of the poster's opinion.

I am real curious as to what evidentiary basis he could have outlined, such that you think his conclusion that the sex was not a movitivating factor in JS collecting 30 plus plural wives is now beyond reproach.

You are mistaken; this is not an appeal to authority. It is, instead, a suggestion for a place to get additional information. And David is exactly right--if you (or anyone) is interested in an amazingly complex topic, you *MUST* read Bachman's thesis. It must be ordered directly from Purdue, but it is well worth it.

If you are really curious, the only way you are going to satisfy that curiosity is to go read it. Its several hundred pages of documentation and analysis is too much to provide here.

-Allen

[katherine the great]

I don't believe plural marriage was either a commandment or an abomination. I think it was Joseph Smith's attempt to emulate the Old Testament Patriarchs and "restore" something that didn't need restoring. By their fruits ye shall know them. The "fruits" of plural marriage (although I am one of them) is that it eventually was discontinued. I'm glad it was discontinued. There is no place for it in our society. I believe monogamy is (and has always been) God's preferred type of marriage although it's obvious that Polygamy has been acceptable to

Him at times.

[Jaybear]

aw:

If you are really curious, the only way you are going to satisfy that curiosity is to go read it. Its several hundred pages of documentation and analysis is too much to provide here.

So you are saying that David is not capable of presenting a cogent argument that JS motivation in collecting 30 plus plural wives was purely religious, without directing the reader to a thesis written in 1975?

Sorry, but we are not talking about the theory of relativity. We talking about the pointing out the existence of predicate facts which would lead one to conclusively reject the possiblity that JS was the typical alpha male, elevated to the position of near absolute authority over his followers.

[Geaux LSU]

I don't believe plural marriage was either a commandment or an abomination.  I think it was Joseph Smith's attempt to emulate the Old Testament Patriarchs and "restore" something that didn't need restoring.  By their fruits ye shall know them.  The "fruits" of plural marriage (although I am one of them) is that it eventually was discontinued.  I'm glad it was discontinued.  There is no place for it in our society.  I believe monogamy is (and has always been) God's preferred type of marriage although it's obvious that Polygamy has been acceptable to

Him at times.

KtG,

Thank you for the reply. As a member of the Church I am trying to sort some things out in my own mind concerning this issue.

Would you mind expanding your thoughts on this post?

[elect_lady]

1. No, I do not believe that polygamy had anything to do with God.

...snip for brevity...

I saw the following statement posted on another thread and I wonder what your reply is:

God's Chosen People - The 12 tribes of Israel were a result of polygamy - Jacob and his 4 wives.

We know polygamy was definitely not limited to Jacob in the Bible. Many prophets practiced polygamy. Therefore, how can polygamy "not have anything to do with God?"

I think that polygamy is always wrong, no matter who practiced it or what time period it was practiced in. I don't believe that a righteous God would command anyone to do such an immoral thing.

[charity]

Geaux LSU, you asked me: "I would like to ask you if you believe this to also be the ultimate reason behind polygamy in the OT days?"

I am not trying to speak for God, when He commanded Abraham and Jacob to have plural wives. In Abraham's situation, Abraham had been promised a multitudinous progeny. Sarah was barren, until divine intervention. Who else was there in Jacob's time to be sealed to as an eternal companion? Seems like only those 4 women were so blessed. I don't know.

[Geaux LSU]

1. No, I do not believe that polygamy had anything to do with God.

...snip for brevity...

I saw the following statement posted on another thread and I wonder what your reply is:

God's Chosen People - The 12 tribes of Israel were a result of polygamy - Jacob and his 4 wives.

We know polygamy was definitely not limited to Jacob in the Bible. Many prophets practiced polygamy. Therefore, how can polygamy "not have anything to do with God?"

I think that polygamy is always wrong, no matter who practiced it or what time period it was practiced in. I don't believe that a righteous God would command anyone to do such an immoral thing.

Would a righteous God permit immoral behavior by his prophets to continue?

[elect_lady]

1. No, I do not believe that polygamy had anything to do with God.

...snip for brevity...

I saw the following statement posted on another thread and I wonder what your reply is:

God's Chosen People - The 12 tribes of Israel were a result of polygamy - Jacob and his 4 wives.

We know polygamy was definitely not limited to Jacob in the Bible. Many prophets practiced polygamy. Therefore, how can polygamy "not have anything to do with God?"

I think that polygamy is always wrong, no matter who practiced it or what time period it was practiced in. I don't believe that a righteous God would command anyone to do such an immoral thing.

Would a righteous God permit immoral behavior by his prophets to continue?

Yes. He allows a lot of sinful activity to continue without interviening.