The war in heaven

[GoCeltics]

My questions are drawn from what I read in the church’s gospel topics.

When 1/3 of Heavenly Father’s spirit children followed Satan and 2/3 followed Jesus Christ, would this mean that Heavenly Father ceased to have any future spirit children after the war in heaven? Or did all the spirit children born after the war still need to grow up to maturity and make a choice to keep the 1/3 and 2/3 ratios intact?

Prior to this war, were all the spirit children of heavenly parents of sufficient age to make an informed choice or were they like those of Nineveh who could not discern between their right and left hands?

[webbles]

I don't think the ratios is 1/3 to 2/3.  It says "a third part".  So, you just need 3 parts of various sizes.  Say you have 100 people.  10 of those people like vanilla, 50 like chocolate, and 40 like strawberry ice cream.  The "third part" could refer to either of those parts.

[teddyaware]

46 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

My questions are drawn from what I read in the church’s gospel topics.

When 1/3 of Heavenly Father’s spirit children followed Satan and 2/3 followed Jesus Christ, would this mean that Heavenly Father ceased to have any future spirit children after the war in heaven? Or did all the spirit children born after the war still need to grow up to maturity and make a choice to keep the 1/3 and 2/3 ratios intact?

Prior to this war, were all the spirit children of heavenly parents of sufficient age to make an informed choice or were they like those of Nineveh who could not discern between their right and left hands?

The answer to your question can be found in the following verses of the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. If you’re unable to come up with the answer on your own, after prayer and pondering, I’ll come back to help you. I don’t want to just give you the answer because that would deprive you the joy of being able to answer the question on your own, with God’s help of course.

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. (Moses 1)

[CV75]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

My questions are drawn from what I read in the church’s gospel topics.

When 1/3 of Heavenly Father’s spirit children followed Satan and 2/3 followed Jesus Christ, would this mean that Heavenly Father ceased to have any future spirit children after the war in heaven? Or did all the spirit children born after the war still need to grow up to maturity and make a choice to keep the 1/3 and 2/3 ratios intact?

Prior to this war, were all the spirit children of heavenly parents of sufficient age to make an informed choice or were they like those of Nineveh who could not discern between their right and left hands?

Q1: Heavenly Father continued having children that were not yet involved in a war. Q2: it is not a ratio, but a part -- perhaps the three parts are: 1) those not yet involved; 2) those involved with the Lord; 3) those involved with Lucifer. Q3: I hate to answer a question with a question, but why would you ask that?  All involved in the war would have made an informed choice; those not involved may or may not have been informed but nonetheless were not yet acting on a choice for any number of reasons.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Prior to this war, were all the spirit children of heavenly parents of sufficient age to make an informed choice or were they like those of Nineveh who could not discern between their right and left hands?

Abraham 3:24-26

"And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever."

**Apparently, in our first estate (pre-Earth life) we received commandments and were in a proving stage, similar to here. And just like after this life, if we proved worthy we were allowed to continue to progress by being born here. I suppose if there were spirits who lacked sufficient knowledge the same principles would apply to them as applies to the ignorant from this estate.**

[Pyreaux]

The passage concerning the idea that Satan took one third of the angels with him in rebellion is Revelation 12:3–4. John sees a sign in heaven: “An enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.” John then relates that the dragon was hurled down to the earth and positively identifies it as “that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray” (Revelation 12:9).

A main takeaway is the dragon is not thrown to earth alone: “His angels were cast out with him” (verse 9). A portion of the angels (the heavenly hosts) who followed Satan in his rebellion. Two thirds of the angels remained loyal to God; one third of the original angels joined Satan and are the origin of the many beings called “unclean spirits” (e.g., Mark 9:25).

Though I don't presume to know if new spirits are born after the war, there were Jews that thought the 'Gup, the Storehouse of Souls' (Jewish premortal existence) could be exhausted. However, the scriptures seem to say they weren't the last angels to fall because of rebellion. There were the rebellions led by Belial, Rahab, Azazel, Dumah, Helel, the Prince of Tyre, and those angels with them. If spirits were born after the war seemed to have plenty of opportunity to join Satan, though whether they get locked inside of nature like Satan's angels do or if they get locked away in the prisons of Tartarus. Either way, it seems like a mature consequence.

Culpability of Spirits

When intelligences were crafted into spirit bodies, we have full awareness, personality, consciousness and agency. As the literal offspring of Heavenly Parents, they taught us as much as we were able to comprehend as spirits. “Spirits are capable of intellectual advancement, love, hate, happiness, sorrow, obedience, disobedience, memory, and other personal characteristics.” (“Spirit Body,” Wilson K. Andersen, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992).

However, in our premortal state we were limited in our ability to achieve a fulness of happiness, such as enjoyed by our Heavenly Parents.  Furthermore, due to the limitations inherent in existence as spirit beings, we were “subject to oppression” from the powers of darkness (Ehat & Cook, Words, McIntire Minute Book: 19 January 1841 (Tuesday), p. 62.) so even in the premortal world, opposition and temptation existed. However, the power to resist and choose remained. In order for us to overcome evil and enjoy eternal felicity, it was necessary for us to acquire a physical body which could later be resurrected into an immortal one.

Spirits were not helpless beguiled victims of Lucifer’s deception. God taught the plan clearly to the premortal spirits. Jesus was presented as the chosen Savior. Satan offered an alternative (Moses 4:1–4). The spirits were not in ignorance. They were not naïve or underinformed - they received instruction according to their level of spiritual development. They knew what the costs were if they had it their way, “Satan... sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him.” (Moses 4:3)

In fact, it is often thought the “War in Heaven” was not a war of violence, but of ideas, allegiance, and choice. One-third of the hosts of heaven chose rebellion was seen as willful and informed, not accidental. “A third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency.” (D&C 29:36) Thus, their punishment - being denied physical bodies and eternal progression - was a direct result of their own mature choices. Thus doctrine affirms culpability.

True, premortal spirits were not omniscient and were still developing, they were sufficiently advanced to comprehend right from wrong, truth, and to make informed, moral choices. This is what justifies the consequence of eternal separation from God, as it is for everyone else.

The spirits who followed Lucifer in the War in Heaven did so with agency, knowledge, and accountability. Although spirits lacked a physical body and were not yet perfect, they were morally responsible for their allegiance. This undergirds the justice of their banishment.

Edited June 28, 2025 by Pyreaux

[let’s roll]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

I don't think the ratios is 1/3 to 2/3.  It says "a third part".  So, you just need 3 parts of various sizes.  Say you have 100 people.  10 of those people like vanilla, 50 like chocolate, and 40 like strawberry ice cream.  The "third part" could refer to either of those parts.

I think of the three parts as: 1.  Those who chose to come to earth to gain a mortal body and be tested; 2. Those who chose to come to earth only to gain a mortal body (won’t be tested because they either die before the age of accountability or, because of mental delay, never become accountable during mortality); and 3.  Those who chose to reject earthly mortality to follow Satan.  As you noted, there is no reason to think the three parts are equal in number.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

The passage concerning idea that Satan took one third of the angels with him in rebellion is Revelation 12:3–4. John sees a sign in heaven: “An enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.” John then relates that the dragon was hurled down to the earth and positively identifies it as “that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray” (Revelation 12:9).

A main takeaway is the dragon is not thrown to earth alone: “His angels were cast out with him” (verse 9). A portion of the angels (the heavenly hosts) who followed Satan in his rebellion. Two thirds of the angels remained loyal to God; one third of the original angels joined Satan and are the origin of the many beings called “unclean spirits” (e.g., Mark 9:25).

Though I don't presume to know if new spirits are born after the war, there were Jews that thought the 'Gup, the Storehouse of Souls' (Jewish premortal existence) could be exhausted. However, the scriptures seem to say they weren't the last angels to fall because of rebellion. There were the rebellions led by Belial, Rahab, Azazel, Dumah, Helel, the Prince of Tyre, and those angels with them. If spirits were born after the war seemed to have plenty of opportunity to join Satan, though whether they get locked inside nature like Satan's angel do or if they get locked away in the prisons of Tartarus. Either way, it seems like a mature consequence.

Culpability of Spirits

When intelligences were crafted into spirit bodies, we have full awareness, personality, consciousness and agency. As the literal offspring of Heavenly Parents, they taught us as much as we were able to comprehend as spirits. “Spirits are capable of intellectual advancement, love, hate, happiness, sorrow, obedience, disobedience, memory, and other personal characteristics.” (“Spirit Body,” Wilson K. Andersen, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992).

However, in our premortal state we were limited in our ability to achieve a fulness of happiness, such as enjoyed by our Heavenly Parents.  Furthermore, due to the limitations inherent in existence as spirit beings, we were “subject to oppression” from the powers of darkness (Ehat & Cook, Words, McIntire Minute Book: 19 January 1841 (Tuesday), p. 62.) so even in the premortal world, opposition and temptation existed. However, the power to resist and choose remained. In order for us to overcome evil and enjoy eternal felicity, it was necessary for us to acquire a physical body which could later be resurrected into an immortal one.

Spirits were not helpless beguiled victims of Lucifer’s deception. God taught the plan clearly to the premortal spirits. Jesus was presented as the chosen Savior. Satan offered an alternative (Moses 4:1–4). The spirits were not in ignorance. They were not naïve or underinformed - they received instruction according to their level of spiritual development. They knew what the costs were if they had it their way, “Satan... sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him.” (Moses 4:3)

In fact, it is often thought the “War in Heaven” was not a war of violence, but of ideas, allegiance, and choice. One-third of the hosts of heaven chose rebellion was seen as willful and informed, not accidental. “A third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency.” (D&C 29:36) Thus, their punishment - being denied physical bodies and eternal progression - was a direct result of their own mature choices. Thus doctrine affirms culpability.

True, premortal spirits were not omniscient and were still developing, they were sufficiently advanced to comprehend right from wrong, truth, and to make informed, moral choices. This is what justifies the consequence of eternal separation from God, as it is for everyone else.

The spirits who followed Lucifer in the War in Heaven did so with agency, knowledge, and accountability. Although spirits lacked a physical body and were not yet perfect, they were morally responsible for their allegiance. This undergirds the justice of their banishment.

My understanding is that spirits were born before, during and after the war in which we were engaged. There were wars before ours and wars to take place after. I see these as generations of souls for whom their cycle of the plan of happiness phases on His eternal round, part of the "continuation of the seeds forever and ever," "continuation of the lives," or the continuation of the works of the Father (D&C 132). It is "the same today as yesterday, and forever" (D&C 35: 1).

[blackstrap]

So, it was possible for a spirit to rebel against God and follow Satan. I wonder if it is possible for a fallen angel to change and rebel against Satan and apply for a return to God , or is it one and done? Seems to me that God is big on giving second chances to those here in mortality. 

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, webbles said:

I don't think the ratios is 1/3 to 2/3.  It says "a third part".  So, you just need 3 parts of various sizes.  Say you have 100 people.  10 of those people like vanilla, 50 like chocolate, and 40 like strawberry ice cream.  The "third part" could refer to either of those parts.

No, the Greek makes it fractional. It might be symbolic but a strict reading means the three parts were roughly or exactly the same size.

[ZealouslyStriving]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, the Greek makes it fractional. It might be symbolic but a strict reading means the three parts were roughly or exactly the same size.

What's the 3rd group in your opinion?

[longview]

31 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What's the 3rd group in your opinion?

The two/thirds outvoted the depravity and antagonism of Lucifer and his henchmen. The majority could have been the whole spectrum of truly faithful and valiant all the way to somewhat confused and whimpering fence sitters. I have heard it said that Cain was in "cahoots" with Lucifer but chose to enter the Second Estate.

[Nofear]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What's the 3rd group in your opinion?

You didn't ask me but I'll chime in. First, we should not that this wasn't the first earth to go around. Countless were before and countless will be after. Heavenly Father presented us with an opportunity to experience mortality as was done on other worlds. Lucifer, perhaps being a bit salty at being denied the role of Adam (aprocryphal text inference stuff) proposed a different plan. We knew that some would mess up and not all would achieve their potential. Lucifer proposed an idea that everybody would "make it". It was a silly idea but he was apparently much more persuasive and I don't think the scriptures give his pitch justice (I'm ok with that, I already rejected his plan once, nonetheless, winners write the history and all that). Some of us decided to go through with plan as was done on other worlds and here we are/were/will be.

The remaining third? Our Heavenly Parents weren't going to make us go to earth. We had to choose voluntarily. Perhaps they got a bit scared and begged off this earth with the idea that they would participate in the next one.




PS: The Nehor is right about the 1/3 thing. Could be symbolic or literal, but the language is one third. I tend to side with mildly literal.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It might be symbolic but a strict reading means the three parts were roughly or exactly the same size

Greek and other ancient languages often used precise numbers for nonprecise things though, iirc, so it seems wise to avoid assuming it meant the precision such fractions mean today.

Since my mind is going blank for example in Greek cultures (been way too long since I studied it), a centurion in the late Roman Republic had closer to 80 men under his command in the “century” instead of 100, even though “century” meant 100.

The numbers reported for armies in the Bible are often debated as whether symbolic, literal, typos…

Edited June 29, 2025 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

4 hours ago, Nofear said:

PS: The Nehor is right about the 1/3 thing. Could be symbolic or literal, but the language is one third. I tend to side with mildly literal.

I think it's entirely figurative. The real purpose of the war in heaven narrative is to democratize the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, only Adam (or Eve) make the decision that triggers the fall. The war in heaven makes the decision universal for all of humanity. The decision in the garden is replaced. But, our sense of the war in heaven is also based on these scriptural passages that are being repurposed to tell a story that was never originally intended. And in doing this, there is always going to be a loss of detail - and the opportunity for people to give more significance to specific language than it should be given. So, I think that rather than trying to make this a completely literal description of some historical event (which it simply cannot be) - we should embrace it's mythic nature and recognize the theological ideas that it champions. And given that this is the theological foundation of our rejection of the notion of original sin, and the idea of the depravity of humanity - I think that this is fairly significant.

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, the Greek makes it fractional. It might be symbolic but a strict reading means the three parts were roughly or exactly the same size.

"It might be symbolic" even though the Greek is fractional is the key phrase here. 

Revelation is intended to be taken symbolically.  The text of Revelation 19 (for example) describes Jesus coming from heaven riding on a literal white horse with his armies also riding upon white horses, while the "beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies" all sit on literal horses, and the fouls of the air are called in to eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and them that sit on them".

I just can't picture a scenario between now and the second coming that would make the armies of the earth give up their jeeps, tanks, submarines, and stealth bombers, and trade them in for horses.  Clearly these are symbolic representations.

[BCSpace]

On 6/28/2025 at 9:56 AM, GoCeltics said:

My questions are drawn from what I read in the church’s gospel topics.

When 1/3 of Heavenly Father’s spirit children followed Satan and 2/3 followed Jesus Christ, would this mean that Heavenly Father ceased to have any future spirit children after the war in heaven? Or did all the spirit children born after the war still need to grow up to maturity and make a choice to keep the 1/3 and 2/3 ratios intact?

Prior to this war, were all the spirit children of heavenly parents of sufficient age to make an informed choice or were they like those of Nineveh who could not discern between their right and left hands?

Perhaps there are multiple batches, one each for a different world, and what we read in the scriptures is only regarding the batch for this earth.

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What's the 3rd group in your opinion?

If I had to guess within LDS theology I would say one group are the fallen who don’t come to Earth, one groups is us, and the last are those who did not stumble at all in the premortal conflict so will be born in the Millenium and not experience the Fall.

So if there are neutrals or a group in the middle I think it is all of us.

[Nofear]

12 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

I think it's entirely figurative

And I'm perfectly fine with that. The question is how figurative. We know that some did. A couple of dozen? A couple of thousand? A few million? A few billion? My intuition is that it would on the larger side or other figurative expressions could be used. So far we have order of magnitude 10^11 humans that have lived. If a few million that is 10^6. So, need something that would evoke a ratio closer to 1:100,000.

"And his tail drew in a handful of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:" But even that is quite misleading since ancients could only see less than 10,000 stars. Even 1 star of 10,000 would be too large (if it were a few million of the 100,000 billion). The ancients were quite smart and I'm not going to default to the state that they give some doofus ratio for something that doesn't even closely approximate the situation. Figurative sure, but they can draw pictures  better than a 2 year old. They were smart. But maybe John the Revelator was just really bad at math. /shrug
 

Edited June 30, 2025 by Nofear

[Benjamin McGuire]

46 minutes ago, Nofear said:

And I'm perfectly fine with that. The question is how figurative. We know that some did. A couple of dozen? A couple of thousand? A few million? A few billion? My intuition is that it would on the larger side or other figurative expressions could be used. So far we have order of magnitude 10^11 humans that have lived. If a few million that is 10^6. So, need something that would evoke a ratio closer to 1:100,000.

The thing about it being figurative is this - it is trying to convey some meaning. If you are asking the wrong questions - questions the narrative was never meant to answer, the only thing you end up with is a misunderstanding of the text. It's kind of like suggesting that the Tree of life is a mango tree, since the fruit is the most desirable above all other fruit. This whole discussion about a literal third creates the numbers problem. If we read it as a literal third, then we have this numbers problem that you mention. Current estimates for the total number of humans who have lived is around 117 billion (your 10^11). A third of that dwarfs the current human population (8.2 billion). Even more so the human population 2,000 years ago (200 million). That is, at the time of Jesus, in theory, there would have been 37 billion of these sons of perdition - approximately 187 for every person alive (talk about your personal angels, right?). So we shift this, and say, well the "third part" doesn't mean a third - it must mean something else. And then we have a different problem (which we are discussing in another thread) because if there is a third part, then there must be two other parts (even though no text ever speaks of a second part - part of the reason why such an interpretation doesn't work with Revelation). And that second part must be the fence-sitters - and so we invent a theology that explains slavery (and clearly, if a literal third part of the host of heaven became slaves, then we have a lot of catching up to do ...) The question is, what is this story - this narrative trying to tell us? The D&C tells us that those who aligned themselves with the devil did so because of their agency. And this really creates problems with our idea of agency. After all, we have a lot of material like this:

Quote

It was necessary in God’s plan for our future happiness and glory that we become morally free and responsible. For that to happen, we needed an experience apart from Him where our choices would determine our destiny. The Fall of Adam provided the spiritual death needed to separate us from God and place us in this mortal condition, as well as the physical death needed to provide an end to the mortal experience. As Alma put it: “And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will” (Alma 42:7).

Do you see the conflict? How does agency exist in the pre-existence such that they could choose to turn away from God - while this separation from God (allowing agency) had not yet happened? And yet, here we are, arguing about the raw numbers of those who fell. Did they really have agency? Could they make choices that would determine their destiny? The theology is incomplete. And the narratives that we have clearly should not be read in any sort of literal fashion. They aren't meant to tell us how many fell, they are meant to explain what the other narratives are also trying to explain - a reason for the existence of evil in the world apart from God. These narratives are trying to explain why God couldn't either make a perfect creation or why He didn't make a perfect creation.

As far as the author of Revelation goes, his narrative relies on imagery that is much older, just as the D&C relies on Revelation. To try and understand the text without understanding its literary history (and the myths that they incorporate) is also going to end up with misunderstanding.

Edited June 30, 2025 by Benjamin McGuire

[Nofear]

Like you say, I'm ok with taking it figuratively. And I have no substantive disagreements with your reasoning. The main idea is that some of our brothers and sisters sided with Lucifer. How many, what order of magnitude? What was John the Revelator trying to convey? That I'm sure we both agree is the salient question. It was more than just a few, but some significant number did. We can quibble about it but no real basis for poo-poo any opinion variant from yours. We don't know the amount. It's certainly not literal in a strict sense. I've never held such a position and do not now. All I did, apparently to get your ire up was to agree with The Nehor (a hazardous proposition, always) that third part in the translation is usually 0.33333.... and not 1 part in 3. Even with that, I still don't take it to be 0.3333.... and said as much. If my intuition sides with with closer to 5% or 20% than 0.01% who cares. It's not like my opinion has any orthopraxic consequence.



Second part of your response is to somebody else.

[teddyaware]

11 hours ago, InCognitus said:

"It might be symbolic" even though the Greek is fractional is the key phrase here. 

Revelation is intended to be taken symbolically.  The text of Revelation 19 (for example) describes Jesus coming from heaven riding on a literal white horse with his armies also riding upon white horses, while the "beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies" all sit on literal horses, and the fouls of the air are called in to eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and them that sit on them".

I just can't picture a scenario between now and the second coming that would make the armies of the earth give up their jeeps, tanks, submarines, and stealth bombers, and trade them in for horses.  Clearly these are symbolic representations.

In light of other portions of the Book of Revelation that employ the expression ‘“third part,” I find this debate about the exact meaning of. the expression “a third part” to be rather silly and unnecessary, an unwarranted complication of simple and strait forward idea. In the following verses quoted from Revelation 8, nearly every translation of the Bible simply renders the King James’ expression “a third part” as “a third.” By using the ‘three separate and distinct sets of a whole’ interpretation of ‘a third part’ that seems to have been generally accepted on this thread, the simple meaning of the following verses from Revelation 8 are twisted into something unnecessarily perplexing and impossible to fathom. As you read ask yourself, what why would the angel be differentiating between the 3 separate and distinct sets of trees, 3 separate and distinct sets of sea creatures, and 3 separate and distinct sets of ships? Isn’t it obvious that the intended meaning is simple — one third part of a whole! By not accepting the simple intended meaning of ‘a third part of a whole’ that’s always been accepted and understood since the early days of the restoration, the participants on this thread have jumped down an Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole of weird speculative theology.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 

[GoCeltics]

On 6/28/2025 at 1:25 PM, CV75 said:

Q1: Heavenly Father continued having children that were not yet involved in a war. Q2: it is not a ratio, but a part -- perhaps the three parts are: 1) those not yet involved; 2) those involved with the Lord; 3) those involved with Lucifer. Q3: I hate to answer a question with a question, but why would you ask that?  All involved in the war would have made an informed choice; those not involved may or may not have been informed but nonetheless were not yet acting on a choice for any number of reasons.

What good or bad choice(s) did those spirit children born after the war make to come to earth to obtain a physical body or fail to get a body?

[GoCeltics]

On 6/28/2025 at 12:50 PM, teddyaware said:

The answer to your question can be found in the following verses of the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. If you’re unable to come up with the answer on your own, after prayer and pondering, I’ll come back to help you. I don’t want to just give you the answer because that would deprive you the joy of being able to answer the question on your own, with God’s help of course.

Revelation 12:4 says “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born”.

Does this third part only apply to one earth or all the other earths? 

[GoCeltics]

On 6/28/2025 at 3:42 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Abraham 3:24-26

"And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever."

**Apparently, in our first estate (pre-Earth life) we received commandments and were in a proving stage, similar to here. And just like after this life, if we proved worthy we were allowed to continue to progress by being born here. I suppose if there were spirits who lacked sufficient knowledge the same principles would apply to them as applies to the ignorant from this estate.**

Were spirit children committing evil as the devil was tempting them in their celestial home when they lived with the Father?