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Posts posted by Sanpitch

  1. 21 minutes ago, hoo rider said:

    The article says:


    Last October (2019) President Nelson told us that the church has provided over $2 billion in humanitarian aid since 1984 ($2 billion / 25 years = $80 million per year on average):

    Available at: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/46nelson?lang=eng


    The difference in the numbers is significant.  I'm inclined to believe President Nelson over the WSJ.  Any idea on why the WSJ claims so much more giving?  




    Big numbers again, but $80,000,000 divided by 7,000,000 active adults is about $11.42 or $0.95 per month.

  2. 2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

    One person's "amassed huge amounts of wealth", is a worldwide church with a spendy global missionary plan's "prudent savings".  $100 billion sounds big until you divide it by the number of LDS in the church, then it's like seven bucks a member.

    Scale your perspective, cinepro.


    Dividing 100,000,000,000 by 7,000,000 adult, active members I get 14,286, or $14,286 per member.  Where did I go wrong?

  3. 30 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

    I do not fault your post. But please be careful with spelling when speaking about other religions.  I am SURE you did not mean to write "Allan".   But rather Allah.

    Fixed, thank you.

  4. The Quran being mentioned, I had a thought, not accusingly, more of a question.  I vaguely remember reading about the Quran that if reading the Quran you need to pray to know whether it is true or not.  Someone must know something about that.  For some reason there are billions of faithful Muslims on Earth who will give their life for their belief or Allah.  Why?   

  5. 6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

    Yes I have but not all the way through. I have spiritual experiences that allow me to put all my faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that The Book of Mormon is true. I don't get the same experience with the Quran.


    Makes sense,  but I'll bet very few have read it.  No I'm not pushing it, I know very little of it.

  6. 7 hours ago, DonBradley said:

    The church also uses the Bible. There are revelations for which Oliver Cowdery was a co-revelator (e.g., D&C 20) and for which Sidney Rigdon was a co-revelator (e.g. D&C 76). The correctness of the Book of Mormon's translation was attested by the Three Witnesses, who heard the voice of God testify to them that it was translated correctly. And no member of the church is expected to believe the scriptures revealed through Joseph Smith based on his say-so, as most churches expect their members to believe what the Bible says simply because it says it. Rather, Latter-day Saints are asked to find out by revelation to themselves if these books are legitimate. That takes the burden of revelation ultimately off of Joseph Smith's shoulders and puts it on the shoulders of every single member of the church.





    Good answer, Don.  Thank you.

  7. 7 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

    Well, you can show your wife picture of the magic rock Joseph used to “translate” the BoM.  Surely, that will leave her speechless.

    That may work, she likes rocks.  Especially magic rocks.

  8. 10 hours ago, smac97 said:

    Hmm.  You are only confirming my perception.

    If you have something thoughtful to say (or ask), have at it.  If all you've got is off-the-cuff, stream-of-consciousness "things that come to mind" (that also happen to appear calculated to offend and provoke), and if you are declining to have a substantive discussion about our faith ("rather than discuss all the details..."), then I'm not sure this will be a fruitful discussion.


    Do you have any thoughts beyond merely disparaging what we believe?

    Well, we could have a discussion about that, if you like.

    I am familiar with what you are writing about.  If you want to have a discussion, please proceed with laying out your thoughts, evidence, argument, etc. 

    If all you've got is taunting and insults, I'll pass.



    Well Ok, why does the BofA papyrus translated by Smith not match what Egyptologists claim it says?  That has been by main obstacle for  many decades to believing the church. 

  9. 14 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

    Would you accept the teachings if God Himself or one of His Angels were to appear to you and vouch for their truthfulness ? Could you then provide a solid source for your conviction? 

    Be careful now because there have been examples in the scriptures of people who saw and yet fell away. Did they have a sandy source? 

    I would have to ask for proof of who they are and who they represent.  Many gods have shown up over the centuries, I would want to get the right one.

    Strappinglad says:  "Sometimes you have to make a decision in order to make a decision"  I think you don't have to make any decision, wait long enough and it makes it's self.

  10. 1 hour ago, longview said:

    You are evading the question.  More specifically, does the pasted sheet containing the fragments represent less than 3% of the papyrus rolls that Joseph purchased from Chandler?  (see points 4 and 5)  An important related question, must everything on the 80 feet of hieroglyphics papyrus rolls be translated?  (see points 5 and 6) You really need to answer on points 7 and 8 as well.

    Keep in mind that the pasted sheet that Emma Smith used may be no larger than 8 by 11 paper (or roughly that size).

    I'm evading the question because it's irreverent to me, there could be truck loads of other papyrus, what is important is what is on the ones in the possession of the church and which Smith used to translate.  And what he did have has no relation to his writings according to Egyptologists.  I'll anxiously wait for your answer to that.   

    Edited to add:  The facsimiles  are on the fragments that Smith had with fragments missing.  Smith drew in what he thought was missing and which Egyptologists claim are entirely wrong.  The facsimiles are probably in your Pearl of Great Price, in the Book of Abraham.  Egyptologists have seen many of these drawing, they are in a common, "Book or the Dead"  or something about Breathing.  I don't remember exact details.

  11. 33 minutes ago, longview said:


    1. what was the total length of the papyri?
    2. how much of the rolls were destroyed in the Chicago Fire?
    3. what were dimensions of the sheet of paper on which Emma Smith (presumably) glued pieces and fragments?
    4. would the recovered papyrus pieces on the sheet represent less than 3% of the total length? (1967 some papyri fragments were found in the Metropolitan Museum of Fine Arts in New York City)
    5. do you expect every piece to be accounted for and included into the translated Book of Abraham?
    6. what if there were pieces NOT relevant to the works of Abraham and God caused Joseph to ignore those?
    7. do you make major life decisions based on one tiny little factoid?
    8. are you willing to study more of the details and facts to hopefully come up with a better understanding of the BIG picture?

    Let's stick to one important question, does Joseph Smith's description or writings of the book match at all what Egyptologists says is on the Papyrus?

  12. 30 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

    Just to be clear you have not read the book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price? I don't see how you could have an opinion if you haven't read them.

    My answer is have you ever read the Quran, do you have an opinion of it.  How can put all your faith in your church and disbelief the Quran.  They both can't be true.

  13. 2 hours ago, smac97 said:


    Well, we could have a discussion about that, if you like.

    I am familiar with what you are writing about.  If you want to have a discussion, please proceed with laying out your thoughts, evidence, argument, etc. 

    If all you've got is taunting and insults, I'll pass.



    I'm going to pass on the detailed discussions.  The BofA and papyrus  discussions could involve a small book, but I would like to read what you have to say about it in defense of the book.  I am curious, maybe you can save it in my mind.  Edited to add, I'm thinking mainly of the papyrus not matching what Joseph Smith said it did. 

  14. 12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

    That would be my relatives as well. My grandmother is his mom's sister. They are very devout LDS and grew up as next door neighbors. I hope Sanpitch doesn't mind I said so, we actually met on this board. So I know of what I speak as far as how devout they are. 

    However the older generation are all dead.  Hi Tacenda, good to hear from you.

  15. My thoughts originally of this thread is that most everything came from Joseph Smith, one man.  Most of the Standard Works came from one man Joseph Smith.  That can be argued endlessly but the church doctrine depends mainly on one man.  One man who tried to introduce polygamy and married 14 - 15 year old and other men's wife.

  16. 38 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

    The problem I have is every person is an individual and every individual has their own personal standards of what they consider evidence to back up a claim.  This is why hung juries occur.  All members of the jury hear the same evidence but they arrive at different conclusions because they look at things differently.  I have seen more than sufficient evidence to validate my beliefs according the standards that I have set for myself.  You most likely have a different standard.  Demanding evidence or support that conforms to your standards might be difficult to do.  If I asked you to prove something you believe to be true but prove it according to my standards, you might have a hard time.   The best one can do is look at all the evidence and decide for yourself.  We can't decide anything for you.  That is your job.

    Exactly, my belief is you usually find evidence for what you are looking for, JWs find a lot to critize other religions for and at times vice versa.  This extends to many other subjects also.

  17. 9 minutes ago, pogi said:

    A stronger base in a Bible that you don't believe in?  This is a strange argument to make. 

    ...and if one believes in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, then who has the stronger base?

    Depends on how much the member knows about what is in the books.  And where to find it if they are asked about a certain doctrine or belief.

    JWs study the Bible constantly, wife can look up just about any scripture or belief in a minute or two.

  18. To Smac  "It seems like you are only trying to stir the pot.  Offend.  Provoke."   Well maybe or just things that come to mind.  Rather than discuss all the details I'll say a thing or two.  I have siblings that occasionally try get me to read the BofM, or tell me that I have to get ready and go to the temple or I'll lose my wife and kids or what ever that entails.  I thought I'd suggest my thoughts to my siblings but decided this board would be more appropriate.  I have a wife and kids on the JW side who try to tell me a similar story about gaining everlasting life.  I care for neither faiths but it always seemed the JWs had a stronger base if someone believed the bible, I don't.  I felt that the translation of the papyrus in about 1967 was the downfall of any faith I had in the church.  I read everything I could on the matter.  Hugh Nibley never came up with a satisfactory explanation.  And if someone doesn't know what I'm writing about then look up the history of the PofGP history.

  19. 28 minutes ago, Calm said:

    So what do you want to discuss?

    If we can use our scripture as sources, what would you accept?

    Or did you just want to tell us we were idiots for believing.  :P 

    No I don't think you're idiots, if you are, most of my relatives, sibling and all are idiots.  Of course I think JWs are on the verge of idiots but don't tell anybody I said that.

    I hope I'm not the idiot.

  20. I've always had a feeling that the members of the church of Jesus Christ (what is the name now) have very limited back up sources to prove their convictions.  Most everything of a scripture nature comes from Joseph Smith.  There are tons of writings dealing with the faith but limited solid sources.  The source members may claim are feelings from the spirit.  My fanatical JW wife and her associates can usually point to the bible to back up any of their beliefs.  What do the church members have that is really solid other than Joseph Smith's writings and claims?  The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price all came mostly from Joseph Smith and the PofGP has been, to my mind a complete fraud.

    But as one post earlies on this board said, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, it's all a fraud.

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