Zakuska

What I find funny is how many people claim the Bible to be the end all discussion and debate about living a Moral Christian life and then turn around and relegate so much of it the trash heap of out moded practices and council.

For example... how many churches do you know of in our day and age that follow Paul council and have the women pray with their head covered? (1 Cor 11:5)

I guess its one more place where Mononism follows the Bible more closely than those who claim a superior understanding of it.

Ariarates,

Let me share a few thoughts that may help.

1. Genesis 1-2, the narrative of God's creation of the human race, provides the model for marriage (as we can see in Jesus' use of the passage in that way, Matt. 19:3-6). There in Genesis we see that God created a man and then created one woman to be his lifelong companion. The two of them were to function as complementary halves united as "one flesh" (Gen. 2:23-25). This passage therefore reveals that God's intention for marriage was that it was to be an exclusive, life-long relationship between one man and one woman.

Aren't we forgetting about Lillith?

Thanks for the link, from the horse's mouth, so to speak...

I like all the letter burning to "conceal" the truth. That should disarm even the most ardent Evangelical critic of Joseph Smith.

Sevenbak,

You wrote:

I have addressed this claim in an earlier thread; I will repeat what I said there:

Luther did not teach that polygamy was morally acceptable. He gave what he later admitted was bad counsel on one occasion to a prince that in effect condoned an act of bigamy, and Luther himself came to view his involvement with regret. Furthermore, Luther explicitly denounced polygamy as of the devil. Here's a source on this subject: Martin Brecht and James L. Schaaf, Martin Luther: The Preservation of the Church, Vol. 3, 1532-1546 (Fortress, 1993), 205-15.

For those who would like to read that online:

Martin Luther: The Preservation of the Church, Vol 3. 1532-1546

Click Contents at the top, and then choose "Chapter XVII - The Calamitous Bigmay of Landgrave Philip "

However, I can't see where Rob thinks that "Luther denounced polygamy as of the devil." Escpecially when on page 206 we read... that the only council he did give was that Landgrave must keep it secret. And then this GEM on page 207... Luther pulls a Joseph Smith!

After Landgrave Married the Second wife on council from Luther and rumor got out that He had "paye.." er thanked Luther with a cask of Rhine Wine:

begining of June, Anthony Lauterbach in Prima wanted to know from luther whether there was any truth to it. Luther did not say there was nothing to the rumor, but he did state that he had not seen any public evidence.

pg 208

Quote mined:

"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."

-JS

Hmmm.... theres also a tale of letter burning...

Luther was unable to give Landgrave's letter to the elector; for safety's sake he had burned it immediatley, "for such a secret, God willing will not be revealed by me." pg 207

Hmm... so Martin Luthert can keep secrets about polygamy, burn letters to conceal the truth and he's a true God fearing defender of the truth.

Yet some early LDS may have did the same thing and that proves Mormonism wrong and Joseph Smith a liar and NOT a prophet how exactly?!

The guacamole known as LDS criticism is getting VERY deep boys!

What is Considered Scripture?

I think Christ answers the question.

Matthew 4:4

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Any thing and everything that God says should be considered scripture. Wether men take the time to compile it into " Ta Biblia" (ie the Divine Library) or not.

Deut. 18:22 tells us how we can determine what God has and has not said.

<delete missread>

Who here is antagonistic towards science?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

<GRIN>

Or so I've been told.

You and I read the Bible quite differently, it seems. I don't think Sarah was happy to be barren and have to give her slave to Abraham. I also don't think Hagar was too happy with being sent away when Sarah got jealous. How do you think the boy Ishmael felt about this? Good spirits?

Paul presents a very important detail to that story that you seemed to have missed.

Galatians 4:29

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

It seems to me that Ismael got sent away because of bad behavior on his and his mothers part. Not because Sarah "got Jealous". But because Ismael and his mother got Jealous and were treating Sarah and Isaac badly.

See above. Good heavens, have you ever heard of the Jewish-Arab conflict? Talk about polygamy fall-out (ok, that's a stretch, but not by much).

Ismael and Hagar seem to have forgotten the promise of the Lord to them.

Genesis 17:20

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Hmmm a blessing and a promise given because of Polygamy and through Polygamy fulffilled.

Genesis 25:16

16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

That doesn't sound like this BAD dismal picture you are painting of it.

EDIT: I see Mola beat me too the punch.

However, as it applies to the question of Native American ancestry, it suddenly becomes unreliable.

Unreliable?

Acts 2

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.\

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and aproselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

I'm pretty sure I showed this guy around the Galilee a few years ago. If he is the one I'm thinking of then he wrote a very interesting thesis about varying gradations of sacred vertical space.

Love it! I think you should copy right trade mark and register it.

Edit: Congrats Mak.

I pointed out in great detail that it absolutely was not. That is the concern that you've yet to directly address. You've only asserted that his prophecy was fulfilled and have ignored my reasons for concluding otherwise.

What those verses show is that the prophecy was mostly fulfilled. The Israelites had been victorious in many battles against the Moabites, but in the final and decisive battle where they were fighting against the king himself, they were run off. The main part of Elisha's prophecy, that Moab would be delivered into Israelite hands, was absolutely not fulfilled. Moab remained autonomous and her king remained in power in a city that withstood the Israelite/Judahite/Edomite siege and ran those forces off. The vassalage that Moab threw off at the death of Ahab was not restored. As I have said many, many times, winning most of the battles doesn't matter if you fail in the last battle and ultimately fail to achieve the goal of the campaign.

Up until the last battle, and in that battle the Moabites won, sending the Israelites packing. The Moabites were not ultimately delivered into the hands of the Israelites. They got away. Their country wash ravaged, but they escaped from the hands of the Israelites at the crucial juncture.

But it did mean the forces said to be delivered into their hands were completely at their mercy. They completely routed their forces and there was no indication that they had to retreat or were driven back after an initial advance. It meant the complete subjugation of the enemy forces that were said to be delivered into their hand.

Neither of those verses uses the word קצף.

I specifically said it could not have come from God, and the notion that it came from Chemosh not only has contextual support, it is the only reading that is contextually supported. The fact that wrath overtook an army that was attacking a city immediately following a dramatic sacrifice by the defending city makes it undeniable that the wrath was from the city's patron deity. In this post I show that this motif appears repeatedly in ancient literature. You have not responded to any of these facts, you have just nakedly asserted that I am wrong.

You and all these translations are simply wrong. That word is never used in this way to refer to the wrath of a human. It does not mean that, period.

I've explained exactly how the context actually does suggest exactly that. You've never directly engaged those comments, you've only said "Nu-uh!"

Only if you import the presupposition that such an event could never happen, but since that's what this entire discussion is about, what you're doing is begging the question.

And this is just a poor apologetic attempt to find some answer other than the clear one, namely that Chemosh drove off Yahweh's forces. The word in question here simply cannot refer to the wrath of the king of Moab. The word's usage and the immediate context make that clear. His act of desperation cannot be interpreted as a great indignation that swept over the Israelite forces. That's a ludicrous reading.

Your simply stating that does not actually show it to be true. You have to back up your assertion with an argument, which you have shown you cannot do.

It does not go against the tenor of the whole Bible if you recognize that the Bible recognizes the existence and potency of the other gods on numerous occasions. An honest and objective reading will show that to be the case. It is only problematized when someone sets out with the conclusion already in mind that such cannot be allowed to be the case. Again, all the evidence is stacked against you and all you seem to be able to do is flippantly dismiss my argument and reassert the very assertions I've shown to be fallacious and uninformed.

And please, please, please stop using different colors. It gives every line an opening and closing color stamp, and it makes formatting my response so very complicated.

I read the whole thread and I just wanted to comment on this post. Im finding myself leaning to the other side on this one. I think Zerinus brings up some valid points here. While it is true the final city did not fall and the king of the moabites was not killed. The king did kill the hier to the throne and thus brought an end to his rule and for all intents and purposes signaled a victory for the Israelites. This is echoed in the words... "Should have reign in his stead".

The purpose was fulffilled so the Israelites went home. Thus the people of the king hated the Israelites for what they had done and had "indignation" towards them, because they had brought an end to the reign of the king and the heir to the throne was dead.

My condolences too Pa Pa.

My Mother has diabetes too and some of my siblings have been diagnosed with it. Once in a whole I get low blood sugars too and it seems for the same reasons as you (ie skipping meals). My Dr. has also been real concerned with my liver function and blood work for 4 or 5 years now. My black birthday is this year and I was really feeling my age. Stiff Ankels and joints. Shortness of breath.

I recently started a new Job with a health and wellness company and so I get free product quite often. Ive been taking one of their products and it has REALLY helped. I posted this a while ago and I'm not sure if you saw it. Im not advertizing, but just sharing what I have found thats has made a world of difference in how I feel, mentally, physically, emotionaly and spiritually. It also helps with liver function and regulating blood sugar levels.

You might want to give it a try. The stuff is expensive but if it makes me feel this good its worth it!

http://www.mormondia...__p__1208966085

Merril Osmond is in one of the adds endorsing it. (Not that celeberities give mor credit for a product)

I shared this with some friends on another board so I thought I would bring it here too for everyones benefit.

Both my wife and I suffer from depression. It seems to get worse in the winter when its so cold and we get less sun light, so our Dr. recomended that we buy some "happy lights" to use around the house in the winter. They have helped over the past few years. I beleive you can buy them at the Devil's Market (aka Walmart). They also sell them on line:

http://www.verilux.c...t-light-therapy

But the real thing that I wanted to share is that this year I started a new Job with a health food company and one of their products has got me feeling better than I have in over ten years.

Basically wolfberrie juice (Goji Juice) that you hear being hyped up and talked down on the News. Opra and Dr. Oz did a special on the wolfberry and it is an excellent nutrient rich food. But, there are people who say bad things about it too. For example, the Canadian equivalent of 60 Minutes did a sting on it and found that "Goji juice" (a specific brand of "punch" made from wolfberry powder) wasn't all it was being advertised as. They had it tested in a Lab and found it was no better than regular Grape Juice nutrition wise.

See that here:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

However, the Product my new company is selling has been tested and developed in the Lab. Is all natural and truly is a super food! Unlike Goji Juice, this stuff uses whole wolfberry puree so it has all the health benefits of the whole fruit but its not lumpy, more readily absorbed than vitamin pills and just crisp and tart. It also has the scientific data to back it up too!

Heres their website: http://www:youngliving.com

I've been taking it for 2 weeks (1 ounce per day) now and all the aches and pains and stiffness in my joints is gone. The carple tunnel pains that I get from my addiction to these boards is gone. The shortness of breath is gone. Energy level is through the roof! Depressed moods gone. Playing with the kids more instead of constantly growling at them to pick up their book bags that they left in the doorway and to go do their homework. I feel 20 years old again! (My "black birthday" 40 is next month)

Honestly! I can't beleive it! I was a skeptic up until a few weeks ago when I tried it and was amazed at the results!

It is kind of expensive (Luckily I get an Employee discount) but with taking only 1 ounce a day it will last for a month and at $1.50 a day for the way I feel its worth its weight in Gold!

If you are intrested here are links to some of the information. The proof is in the pudding with Chinese who eat the fruit living well into their 120+s.

NingXia Red

Part 1:

Part 2:

Watching the video you should notice that XANGO juice, one of our competitors, when compared to NingXia Red is like fruit punch when it comes to anti-oxidants H-ORAC testing, and health benefits! Red has about 5 times as much antioxidants!

Here is an Add with testimonials. (The soccer player is playing on the REAL Xango practice field. LOL. It also includes a testimonial from Merril Osmond)

Some of the science behind it on how it helps your blood. Including regulating blood sugar, increasing oxygen intake, 16% protient per ounce, helps with depression, helps liver function, helps eye sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmV4SNbudBc&NR=1

And here is another Dr. from John Hopkins University that also has developed a juice from the wolfberry and cooberates Mr. Youngs findings. He gets into more techinical details of how different foods (Goji juice, candy bars, alchohol etc.) effect the blood.

Another Video, Instead of stealing the Gold in King Tuts tomb, tomb robbers stold the essential oils, (You know ... the 3 wise men... Gold, Frankensense, and Myrrh, the washing of the feet, the healing of the Samaritan) they esteemed them more that Gold and Jewels because of their health benefits.

Gold of the Ages:

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XtxsELPA6Y

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx3vA3a6hM8&feature=related

I'd recomend this to anyone! However, do your own home work first before you beleive anything I say. And I don't take responsibility for any I'll effects you might suffer. All I know is it has really made a difference for me!

As commander Spock would say... Live long and prosper!