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Rob Osborn

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Posts posted by Rob Osborn

  1. Evolved motivators to reproduction. But I'm not sure why we think that would carry on past this life (or for that matter, why it wouldn't). It's all speculation.

    LDS do make covenants about sexual and intimate relations for not only this life but also in eternity. Thats one aspect of our beliefs not very many know about. Sexual relations within marriage is an eternal blessing, not just a mortal blessing.

  2. In light of several recent discussions centering around changes to the Church and its teachings and practices I have noticed I am one of very few who takes a more objective, less subjective view to these things.  That's not to say I don't believe anything can ever change, but I apparently believe far less can change than most members and still be approved by God.


    So here is my question:

    What elements of your testimony and the teachings you believe and accept do you believe are absolute, not open for interpretation and unchangeable?


    I anticipate a lot of people will respond that the Savior and his atonement are the only things so I will agree to that.  Is there nothing else in Mormonism that is absolute?


    I will give an example - there are people on this board arguing that either SSM or women being ordained to the priesthood can be revealed from heaven as acceptable.  There are others who state that these are absolutes and cannot be changed ever.


    So I ask again?  What are your absolutes?

    The basic plan of salvation, Gods role, Jesus role, and who Satan is are all absolutes- those things willnot change. The ten commandments are also absolutes. Laws such as those will never change. Marriage between man and woman/women will never change. The way the priesthood is organized and administered will also never change due to the nature of eternal gender identity and roles of gender in eternity.

    Some things I see as not absolutes- the way we have interpreted the three kingdoms is not an absolute and will eventually change to correct problems with it. The true reason and cause for races/skins of different color will change to have a better understanding. Some of the temple endowment ceremony and other temple procedures/practices will continue to change as needed to come more in line with the truth. The true nature of prayerand priesthood authority will change in due time to better reflect a patriarchal form of priesthood like the gods use.

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  3. Two questions to see the various thoughts out there. I have my own but am interested in others' thoughts.


    1) When did gender start? Did it exist before we were organized with a spirit body by our Heavenly Parents or is it something that came with getting a spirit body? If the latter did we get a choice (assuming we had the capacity to intelligently choose) or was some other criteria used?


    2) Why gender? As The Family: A Proclamation to the World states, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Sexual reproduction can and does occur in numerous ways (see link here if you need a biology primer/refresher). So, there appears to be some level of choice why our species chose this version of gendered procreation. Does gender have reasons and purposes beyond just reproductive practicalities and if so what?

    Well, as for your #2, we know that a man and a woman compliment each other in every fashion. Besides that, we know both man and womans bodies run differently and even that man and woman think differently and calculate decisions differently. Because of the nature and nurture of life, to be strong creates a need for balance. Both the man and woman balance each other out and add the needed perspective to solve a myriad of problems that society can create. When solved correctly, it requires bot a man and a womans perspectives to come up with the best solution. Gender makes up every aspect of our bodies- from sexual reproductive organs and muscle density to how our brains are wired. I am sure that our spirits are no different. We are each unique and offer that right balance that the other one lacks so that we do not have a society that becomes one tracked into misery.

  4. We're not talking about other worlds or other lives. We're talking about this life. To say that there is literal procreation in the afterlife is speculation upon speculation.

    Not so much. Why do we do temple marriages? So that couples can be together in the next life and beyond into eternity. And why do they need to be together as couples? So that their seed continues on into eternity according to the D&C section 132. Literal procreation in eternity by gods is reality in LDS doctrine.

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  5. If there's a revelation let's include it in scripture. Canonize it. Add it to the D&C. Otherwise there is no official doctrine that binds the church regarding homosexuality. We are left to cite old testament scriptures to denounce the practice and we all know the old testament is full of errors. Canonized scripture would make clear what is doctrine as opposed to the personal opinions of leaders based on time and culture.

    So you think there is no official doctrine on homosexuality? If thats what you honestly believe then no one can help you. Every LDS know the stance of the church on homosexuality- its perfectly clear. So, if you do not know it or believe there is no official teaching you must not be an active member.


    You are going to get yourself taken out of a thread again. Be nice.

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  6. What exactly is a valiant homosexual? 


    There are many different degrees of evil but all evil comes down to a violation of the laws of God.  Why can't a practicing homosexual enter the Celestial Kingdom?  Because the very act is a violation of Celestial law.   Every kingdom has a law and in order to obtain that kingdom, one must be in compliance with that law.  Whether a homosexual is true to their partner or not really does not matter.  God does not care about that anymore than God cares if an unmarried couple who live together their whole life are true to each other.  We were put on this earth to see if we would keep the commandments of God.  To see how obedient we are to the commandments.  Life is not an exercise of seeing in what creative ways we can find a loophole around the commandments.


    Jesus and Satan are polar opposites.  Whatever Jesus is for, Satan is against and vice versa.  So one this issue we can ask these two questions to arrive at our answer


    1.  What is Jesus views regarding homosexuality and SSM?


    2.  What are Satan views regarding homosexuality and SSM?

    Very good answer. I tried answering these questions and it helped me further realize how too often we as society unknowingly play the devils advocate trying some desperate way to justify homosexual behavior.

  7. So we have another one for the "God said so" argument; still no convincing why. Oh, and please define natural in the context of your argument.

    God also said thou shalt love the lord thy God. Now you can also just say the because "God says so" argument here too For that matter you could do it with all of God's laws and commandments and never get anywhere other than show ignorance and mockery to God. So why then is it a commandment to love God? Because we love God by being obedient to His commandments and serving him in holiness and through this process we gain access to Christ and salvation. So, why is homosexuality sinful? For the same reason that adultery is sinful. Do not be deceived to think that homosexuality is holiness before God.

  8. In 15 years of observing the church's efforts against SSM, I don't know that a solid explanation has been presented for what makes homosexuality inherently evil. The two most common attempts I've seen are:

    1. Marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God

    2. Homosexuality prevents exaltation.

    Regarding the first explanation, logically, God ordaining one practice does not mean another is not or cannot be ordained by him. However, what i think advocates of this response really mean to say is "God said so." But God saying something is evil in no way explains the inherent evil of a practice. In addition, I don't know that such an explanation is adequate. Saying that something is evil solely because God said so would imply that certain practices would not be evil if God did not say so. For example, I think most would regard rape as evil, regardless of god's condemnation of the practice.

    In response to the second, I would say that the church would then need to preach against celibacy and the refusal to be sealed as harshly as it does against homosexuality. We are taught that exaltation is reserved for those who have been sealed. It has also been taught that given the equity of God, all will have the opportunity to marry (which seems fair since God likely created humans to become like him). However we know there are degrees within the celestial kingdom reserved for ministering angels who do not marry. It seems that we can conclude that these ministering angels choose not to marry and thus choose a path other than exaltation. Why are they not condemned as homosexuals are? Why can't a valiant homosexual individual who remains true to their partner all their life not enter the celestial kingdom? Perhaps these are better questions than "what makes homosexuality inherently evil?"

    Homosexuality is a sin in Gods eyes. God did not create man to be with man, he created man to be with woman. Any sexual activity has to be within the bonds of marriage between man and woman. Immorality is immorality. Homosexuality is not natural, it goes against nature and is a type of mockery of ones creation by God. Lucifer argues the same tirade over and over again questioning every law of God. Lucifer of course lost his case and was thrown out of heaven. One certainly is free to be disobedient to law and suffer the penalty if one wishes, but be very careful about falling into the same trap of Satan in questioning God's laws.

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  9. "MormonFreeThinker" post="1209477290" timestamp="1426731924"]why did you ignore the examples I gave you?

    You said- " The "no blood before the Fall" is no longer published in new church manuals. "Global Flood" is not mentioned by any general authority."

    I never said anything, nor care about blood before the fall.

    The flood being global is official church doctrine.

  10. I guess from the first moment long ago that a man looked up in the night sky, and said to himself "I wonder what those bright shiny things are" we have used our imaginations to make sense of it.

    You nailed it! It even applies to finding the fossils in the geologic column- using vivid imagnation to make sense of it.

  11. That's The problem.

    Science does not show "truth", it justifies belief in theories which assume that ultimate truth can be discovered by science.

    It cannot.

    We have been over this a million times just in this thread. Do we really have to revisit that discussion I had with Tarski?

    Its good that the Book of Mormon didnt have to be peer reviewed or we would be screwed.

  12. I asked you for a useful definition. What is "consistently gets published"?


    The "no blood before the Fall" is no longer published in new church manuals. 

    "Global Flood" is not mentioned by any general authority. 


    What is official church doctrine?

    Manuals, scriptures, first presidency statements, etc. (consistently published,,,)

  13. Such as?

    There is no 1st century secular evidence he existed. He is not mentioned in any records. The 'history' of the gospels does not match real history. These two factors prove to me that there is less evidence that the Savior ever existed then there is for the Book of Mormon

    Seriously? I never thought someone on these boards would think such a way. I am gonna have to regroup. Kudos to ya, I will be back.

  14. How is the empirical evidence of the physical world man's teaching? As Thomas Paine said"THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD: And it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."

    "Empirical evidence" can indeed be nothing more than a well established series of tales, fairytales and fables.

  15. We have tons of evidence that the New Testament and even Old Testament were historical events. Indeed there is a lot of evidence for Christ as spoken of in the Bible. But, even with all of that evidence there is a myriad of naysayers out there. Evidence is funny that way because of mans feebleness in deciphering the evidence. The problem I see with trying to find BoM evidences through archaeology is that its probably not what we think it to be and so we end up spending almost all our time chasing dead end roads. Over time, because we see so extremely poorly, some fall away from the church because the evidence for the BoM they so desperately wanted never panned out. So where ever was their testimony then? That is the point of it all. Validity of the BoM will come through a spiritual witness not physical evidence. Will they ever find solid evidence for the BoM? Probably. Will it lead to a great conversion tool for new converts? Highly doubtful because we do not see the same with the Bible and evidence of Christianity conversion based on that evidence.

    Does God hide the evidence? No, between what man destroys and what man hides and distorts, mostly through plain ignorance, the evidence gets lost in mans so called "wisdom". I mean really- "hunter gatherers"? I really doubt Nephis early civilization thought of themselves as hunter gatherers.

  16. So if we go through life single for some reason and never wind up married or with a family, but we want to be sealed in the temple to have a chance at exaltation and an eternal companion, will we get that chance before probation ends? Because I don't want anyone who wants a family to have to spend eternity single.

    Oh yes, all who desire exaltation will have that opportunity here and in the next life.

  17. Yes..it is your FAITH that has taken you to that point.  There is nothing that can be proven.  THAT is my point.

    Yes, it is my faith in it that makes me a believer. Everything else, including archeology doesnt mean much, especially in light of mans feeble methods and proofs.

  18. Whoa...are you saying that we could be resurrected to Celestial bodies but fail the test and be downgraded to Terrestrial bodies?


    Or are you going with Rob Osborn's teaching that we all go from Telestial to Terrestrial and end up Celestial along with the earth?


    Either way, trying and testing a resurrected being is a very interesting notion...

    I like the word "quicken" as it applies to us and our future estates of having glory added upon us forever and ever- periodically being "quickened" to a higher degree of glory forever and ever.

    BTW, have you ever heard of the "new revelations" by a gentleman in Chicago, early 20th century? Whereas they are not considered LDS doctrine, the supposed revelation contains many striking similarities to LDS and even expounds on a lot of topics dealing with progression.

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