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Posts posted by Jracforr



    “He who would know the future, must study the past”

    It has been said “ He who would know the future, must study the past” as the events and circumstances which befall mankind, have their precedence in ages past. This has prompted historians over the centuries , to make a comparative analysis of different Eras of Civilization, with the hope of finding a predictable pattern of behavior, among and within nations. The characteristics of some modern nation are so strikingly similar to ancient ones, that one has to wonder if they are simply coincidence, or are they in fact nations recreated in a new location.

    The ancient Egyptians believed that the dead would be resurrected to the West of where they previously served, therefore it is to a new land in the West, that we should look for our recreated nations. A parallel has been established between the American Republic, and that of the ancient Roman Republic, references have also been made to Britain and Ancient Greece. If in fact the American Republic is a recreation of the Roman Republic, we could conclude that many other nations in the New World are also of ancient origin; therefore, those familiar with History may find the following comparisons thought provoking. If we regard the old centers of civilization in the Western and Eastern Mediterranean as being re-established in the Western and Eastern Atlantic, we could come to the following conclusion:

    Rome - USA

    Carthage - Venezuela

    Sardinia - Hispaniola

    Corsica - Cuba

    Egypt - Spain

    Greece - Britain

    Syria - France

    Scythia - Russia

    Assyria - Germany

     My understanding of History in a single post, my life’s work, not arrived at by dreams or vision, but by study and reflection as we LDS are encouraged to seek knowledge from every good book.

  2. 49 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

    Where in France did the Normans settle other than Normandy?

    I'm asking because you seem to be just saying things here.  The areas of Norman settlement and conquest are not much of a mystery.  I don't see SE France among them.

    When the Normans conquered England and established their own Dynasty, the Anglo-Norman Kings of England establish domain on the West Coast of France, occupying an area along France’s Biscayne Bay for over a Century . The small area called Normandy was their initial settlement before they returned as English Kings. Google French History it will be explained there.

  3. 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    You appear to have no idea what those biblical terms mean.  Abraham and his kin are Aramaeans (Chaldeans) and Hebrews.  Hebrew tribes are a larger group of which Abraham is a part.  All of them are Semites, and speak Semitic languages.  There was no Hebrew language in Abraham's time.

    It is true that there was some intermarriage with other peoples, but those instances were swallowed up in the much larger gene pool, so are not recognizable later.  Manasseh & Ephraim, for example, are half Egyptian, but that has no long term effect on the endogamous Israelite tribes over the thousands of years of their existence -- down to the present day.

    The Chaldeans are French and the land of Armenia in the New World is Denmark ,therefore they are two distinct people, not one as you imply. It is quite possible that Abraham and his wife were partially related to both people as they did intermarry in France . The Danish /Norman colonial lands in South East France actually provided a place of safety for the French Protestant for awhile, suggesting  they found refuge there because they had kin in that region . God mix and engraft people to suit his purpose, at the time and place he determines, as outlined in the Parable of the tame and the wild Olive Trees.( Jacob 5:)

  4. 1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

    Jesse was from the tribe of Judah.  He was a descendant of Ruth, who was from Moab.  But the Moabites were Semetic, descended from Lot.


    While both Greeks and Germans are Indo-Europeans, saying that Greeks are Germans or Germans are Greeks is not true.

    How is it equivalent?

     A. The wife of Lot was Hamitic, making any descendant from his offspring a mixture of Hamitic and Semitic blood. The adoption of this bloodline in Judah is intended to enable a positive Hebrew influence in the Hamitic /Latin world , as occurred in Portugal. The colonial territories of Mozambique in Africa actually replicates the Land of Moab in Israel.

    B. The Classical Greeks are of “Germanic“  stock, unlike the tribes they displace, the same Germanic displacement occurred in the UK when the Anglo-Saxon displaced the Celtic Britons. A mixture of both peoples coexisted in the land with the Germanic people being dominant, the Saxons being the equivalent of Mycenaean Greeks.
    C. If the French and the Chaldean are kindred people, and an ancient religious Reformation among the Chaldeans, resulted in the dissenting people being driven from the land, could you see a parallel if a similar situation occurred among their French kin, many centuries after. Of even greater significance is the fact that the destruction of the French Protestant occurred on a similar timeline as the destruction of Abraham’s descendants in Jerusalem.

  5. 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    That all has the status of rumormongering, and is sheer nonsense.  You are confusing Indo-Europeans with Semites, whose origins and DNA are completely different.  Hebrews are a large Semitic grouping, only part of which are Israelites.  Israelite and Canaanite DNA are virtually the same (combined Phoenician, Israelite, Ammonite, Moabite, and Edomite DNA).

    Can you identify the rumor/ nonsense in the following statements

    A. The Tribe of Judah was mixed with Hamitic blood through the the House of Jesse 

    B. The Tribe of Benjamin was mixed with the blood of Japheth by intermarriage with Greek (Germanic) Gentiles from Shiloh.

    C. Abraham was a Reformed Chaldean which equates to a French Protestant in our World. 

  6. 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    Nonsense.  The Franks and the Dutch have no Manassite DNA.  We know what ancient and modern Israelite DNA is like.

    The DNA of the Jews which is being used to identify their Hebrew roots, are most closely matched to  that of the the Italians, and Phoenician and cannot provide an accurate identity of their real heritage.  The Patriarch Abraham was however of Chaldean heritage, actually a Chaldean Priest whose failed attempted to reform the Church, resulted in his exile. These ancient Chaldean are todays French people, therefore Abraham was the equivalent of a FRENCH PROTESTANT / HUGUENOT,  a kindred people to the DUTCH and all CALVINIST.
    In the Ancient World ,Abraham and his Grandson Jacob were mixed with different women, resulting in the twelve tribes of Israel, who would become a blessing to humanity eventually. This was accomplished by engrafting different Tribes unto the three ethnicities of Humanity referred to as Shem/Celtic, Ham/Latin and Japheth/ Germanic. The Tribe of Judah is mixed with the Latin / Hamitic population via the House of JESSE , while the Tribe of Benjamin was mixed with Japheth/Germanic people. These  mixed DNA makes it difficult to accurately trace the original roots of the Hebrews, but other historic and geographic methods make it possible to identify  the Hebrews and all nations both ancient and modern. 
    The entire Hebrew family could be collectively referred to as the Half Tribe of Manasseh, as their mixed heritage allow them to communicate with all ethnicities 

  7. 2 hours ago, pogi said:

    So, are you changing your original claim that "all civilizations" have a 1300 year (you said "centuries" above.  I assume that was a mistake) timetable, to only 3 ethnic groups?  The Chinese don't count?  

    How did you figure out the original tribes of Latin, Celtic, and Germanic races?   Same question for Peter, James, and John?  How do you know their genealogies?  

    The Chinese/ Mongolian Civilization is actually a hybrid of Ham / Latin and Shem / Celtic

    Han Chinese - Ham

    Mongols - Shem 

    The Japanese bloodline  is Japheth, not present in China.

    The three ethnic groups rise and fall in a specific order, allowing you to associate unrelated ethnic groups with the three known divisions, based on the time of their rise and fall.

    Peter James and John are all of Hebrews lineage, they were just assigned to different ethnicities.

  8. Three ethnic groups are present in ever Civilization that endures for 1300 years  and beyond.


    Latin /Ham 

    Celtic /Shem 

    Germanic / Japheth. 

    This understanding was introduced to Israel when Jesus took, Peter/Ham, John/Shem and James/ Japheth and showed them how the Kingdom of God / Body of Christ, would be Transfigured. A concept alien and offensive  to the Semitic Pharisees, but  necessary for the fulfillment of Abraham’s  blessing upon the world beyond his own posterity.
      Each Disciple who witnessed this Transfiguration, gathered the Hebrews from within their assigned communities, and prepared them for life in a New World and Kingdom , leaving the unrepentant to their fate.

    Rome, The UK and the Islamic World all have these three  ethnic components within them, but their actions are expressed in the founding culture of the host Civilization, hence the term “Anglo Orientation “ when referring to the UK.

  9. The Equivalent of the Half Tribe of Manasseh can be found in every Ethnic group, providing  an essential link between that ethnicity, and others beyond it’s core. This process seem to enabling communication between the core group and others, enabling both positive and negative interactions , as witnessed in Ireland. These Tribes of Manasseh, wherever they occur, may well be the world’s messengers and evangelists by design.


    The Frank have their Half Tribe of Manasseh in the Dutch People 

    The Irish Catholic  have the Scot-Irish Presbyterian 

    The Anglo-Normans have the Victorian English

    The Scandinavian have the Finnish People 

    The Africans have the Arabs 

    The Chinese have the Mongols 

  10. 11 minutes ago, pogi said:

    Are you saying that all civilizations have the same timetable?  Are you suggesting that the righteous Native American's found "refuge elsewhere" and only the "wicked" ones were brought down?

    Yes all Civilization are assigned the same life span of approximately 1300 years, they will experience Dynastic changes over that period such as occur in the UK with Tudors, Stuart’s and Hanoverian ruling in different centuries while maintaining a common Anglo orientation. This principle determined the the rise of Islam in 632 AD and it’s collapse and colonization by European in 1917. The same is true for Rome 753 BC -476 AD. The supposed 3000 years of Egyptian Civilization, could be equated to the years of Ancient Rome’s existence, being added to that of Christian Rome 2020 years. 
      The fate of Lehi and other tribes from Israel being led away from Jerusalem prior to it’s destruction, is proof that some “ worth individuals” are led away prior to the destruction of a Civilization. Hagoth the Nephite shipbuilder, provided such an escape route for many members of his community. This  proves that some Native Americans fled the the Americas in ancient and modern times because the same all knowing God watched over them, and alert them to the dangers at hand. This is not my opinion, it is written in the scripture we ponder and pray over.

  11. 2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

    ...or the excuse used by the conquerors to justify their atrocities. (Trail of tears?)

    Some justify their wickedness in that manner as you suggested, but in time they will account for their transgressions. However Civilization is set to a specific “Timetable “ and it is plucked up at the conclusion of that time, the righteous may find refuge elsewhere and the wicked will be brought down.

  12. On 10/12/2020 at 3:16 PM, katherine the great said:

    How lovely. Another commonality is the utter genocide and displacement of the people already living in those areas. 

    The replacement of a fallen people after their allotted time has expired, is the law and the will of God.  That’s  the message in the Book of Mormon, the Bible and America’s history. Those who find favor in the eyes of God are relocated prior to their Civilization being terminated, as happen to Lehi and others in the BOM. 

  13. 5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    It is the sole reason why we have free agency -- which is not a gift of God, but is inherent within us, for the same reason it is in inherent in God.  Without that eternal attribute, we have no free will.

    Your quote indicated you recognized that Humans have free will or free agency. I think we are making progress here,I expected a quote on determinism, congratulations, however we need not differ on the subtleties in the meaning of IQ, wisdom or intelligence, that’s  another day’s discussion .

  14. 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    the Lord declares that intelligence, something which we do not fully understand, was co-eternal with him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it. Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligences spoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons.[3]


    What is called Intelligence is also called Wisdom, or the wise use of Knowledge , God can bestow Wisdom on his chosen ones and thereby give them Godlike abilities, thus enabling them to choose, act and direct events, instead of being subjected to chance and circumstances only, or what you affectionately call “Determinism “. Yes the laws of nature set boundaries for our action, but we also have free agency to act for our selves. You don’t need Philosophers to tell you otherwise , your own experiences can clearly indicate that fact. 
          Wisdom/Intelligence are the attributes of God, this is what makes him God, and he can impart some of his qualities to whom he wishes, that is the the invitation he extend to us mere  Mortals. If we accept the conditions attendant to God invitation, our lives will be less subjected to  chance and circumstances. The technical capabilities of our generation, are beyond the comprehension of our ancient ancestors, who would regard us as Gods or Sorcerer if they could see us now. It is obvious that the more we partake of God’s Wisdom/Intelligence, the less we are impounded by Determinism.

  15. 47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    Determinism says that your reply, and my reply are both predetermined.  That free will was not involved in any way.  Your or my personal story about free will is merely an afterthought, predetermined by circumstances.  There is in fact no chaos, because natural law always applies.  Chaos is merely a story we tell to each other as humans.

    Thus far, you have completely failed to explain how free will can obtain within a fully deterministic system.

    How is it possible for us to be "free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for" ourselves "and not to be acted upon"? (2 Nephi 2:26)  You keep going down the same blind alley that the normative Judeo-Christians always go, and which leads to the death of God.  There is a reason why Calvinist Presbyterians accept the full sovereignty of God and argue against free will.  What is the key to the difference in LDS theology?

    “ Determinism” is somebody’s Circumstantial Evidence of reality, you and I have Empirical Evidence, that Natural Laws predetermined  events, but they do not prevent the exercise of free will. Dumb animals are predestined to one fate or another, but Humanity can exercise choices and receive consequences, hence while a Presbyterian maybe “ Predisposed “ to salvation, he is not “ Predestined “ because he is not a dumb animal, therefore he can make choices good or bad. The LDS Church and the entire ministry of Christ would be a mirage, if humanity could not act independently to determine it’s  fate. Some people, based upon the errors of their forefathers have almost exclusively bad choices /option before them, but they can still choose the right up to a certain point . Drug addiction can take an individual beyond the point of no return, as do many other errors in life, but at some point, free will could have changed their destiny. 

  16. On 9/28/2020 at 4:25 AM, Maedros said:

    Very interesting points of view but I worry that you're reading too much Apocrypha; the apocryphal views seem to dominate your view point; the gist of your response is correct (I would say) but that entire doctrine is readily available in the lds scriptures and words of modern prophets. I believe that it is best (for me) to stick to the cookie cut doctrines and teachings as they are the most aligning with the Lord's will for this time.

    The scriptures written in the Apocrypha are mostly correct, though some errors are to be found in them. ( D&C 91) 

    I understand your concern about relying on other sources of information other than the standard LDS works, but where these documents are found relevant, I have no reservations about using them. The very Book of Mormon in which we trust, was dismissed by Christian skeptics, for the same reason you are reluctant to see value in the Apocrypha , because they did not considered them to be standard literature . However as (2Nephi 29) states , the word of god is given to many nations, other than those we are familiar with, to prove he created all men and he remembers then in their diverse location.

    2Nephi 29: 7-9

    7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
    8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
    9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

  17. 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    Do not be fooled by the infinite variety of options made available by engineering skill.  All those "choices" are controlled by natural law.  Indeed, since humans and everything else are made up of atomic particles, and since the nature of those particles is mechanical and predictable (not subject to chance), all actions and reactions are predetermined by natural law.  No matter how complex those interactions, they all follow natural law, and are completely deterministic in nature.  Humans tell themselves that they are making choices, when in fact the choices have already been made for them by nature, and they are merely engaged in predictable rationalization about it -- they construct a story to account for that which has already taken place.

    Einstein admitted that when he said that God does not play with dice.  Your task in discussing this is to explain how free will is possible in a fully deterministic system.

    If all actions and reactions are predetermined, you could say my response to your comment was not an exercise of “ MY FREE WILL”, but rather some predetermined impulse made me react, we all know that is nonsense, because both free will and natural laws govern our lives, it is not one or the other, it is both. I am a firm believer that natural laws “predetermined” the Physical and Human Geography of this Planet, as my comments on previous  topics indicated.  However I am equally convinced that our free will can make life on this Planet better or worse, depending on what we  choose to do or not do. Our lives and that of the ethnic group to which we belong, have a specific timeline in which to act, and a specific location in which to prosper or fail, and it is our ignorance of these natural laws that result in the chaos we currently live in.  Highlighting the importance of the binding effects of natural laws in necessary , but it must be accompanied by the knowledge, that free will exists, within the constraints imposed by natural laws 

  18. 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    But that is not an argument in favor of free will or free agency, but rather a strong argument for determinism.  When one is not free to do anything which contravenes natural law, how can any decision be free?

    Do you realize you are saying that LIMITS to an action means there is no free will. I know you did not intend to say that, just observe the many, almost endless designs of Buildings ,Toys, Ships , Cars, etc, etc. You will notice there is “almost” limitless freedom. Don’t get caught up in foolish Philosophy, every thing has limits.

  19. 14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    On the other hand, we have Sabine Hossenfelder telling us that there cannot be free well, 


    We have Free Agency within limits set by LAW. That is the whole purpose of religious education, trying to inform all knowing humans, that there are limits to what they can “Lawfully” do, with their Free Agency. We are all free to build a Ship or Plane to any specifications we choose, but the principles of flotation and aerodynamic determine if our effort will end in success or failure. Religious Educators are trying to teach the faithful, the same message that University Lectures are trying to teach the Engineering student, real freedom can only be found in obedience to Natural / God given Laws. Outside of that principle you life will crash and burn or sink and drown, as will your ill designed Plane or Ship.

  20. 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

    Does Alma 32 partake of the experimental method of science?  Is it an empirical process?

    Alma 32, fully explains the process that takes an individual from simple faith, to absolute certainty, that what was first see as theory can be supported by solid evidence eventually. God will enlighten the mind and reveal hidden knowledge that will leave the individual in awe, as he did with the brother of Jared, Abraham and Moses. You may refer to it as an empirical process if you so choose, as discovering truth in science or any other secular activity is very similar to attaining spiritual Truth / Laws..

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  21. 18 hours ago, gav said:

    Is there any, and if so what in your minds would qualify?

    It is often claimed that there is no empirical evidence for God. I personally refute that claim but would love to hear others opinions.

    Only a few individuals have empirical evidence of the existence of God, the brother of Jared being one, the rest of humanity are told to exercise Faith which is circumstantial evidence. This circumstantial evidence/ Faith will in time become empirical evidence if pursued with diligence, as was the case of the brother of Jared. If you prematurely  discard your circumstantial evidence/ Faith, you will never attain empirical evidence/ Enlightenment, therefore the answer to your question, depends entirely on the individual.

  22. 15 hours ago, ksfisher said:

    Or preexisting divisions could have been used.

    The pattern used to set the tribal boundaries, could have been copied from elsewhere or received through inspiration. A similar situation exists in the US whereby the 13 original state boundaries, are remarkable similar to the tribal boundaries of Israel. 
    Judah - Georgia, Benjamin - Virginia,  Ephraim - Pennsylvania, Asher - New York, etc,etc. Wherever  the source of inspiration may have come from, the reality is that the tribal boundaries of the World do follow a common pattern.

  23. 30 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

    It would be seen as tainted from the first minute.

    If you previously stated a particular preference for a certain geographic location, and you are now willing to explore other venues, then some may question your judgement , but the Church has no known geographic  preference that I am aware of. It maybe biased to a commonly held view and that is understandable and acceptable . However the very nature of the Church’s mission is to correct established beliefs that are founded on errors, so why would it be unwilling to seek to correct an error among its own members, if indeed an error exists. Even more so, why worry about being “tainted” because you are questioning  assume misunderstanding, is not the whole LDS Church already “tainted” for offering another “Testimony of Christ”. 
    Research by it’s very nature, necessitates trial and experimentation, so there is no need to fear what other may assume because you are seeking truth, if Joseph Smith feared being “ Tainted” he would have hid those ancient plates and kept his mouth shut, but he did not.

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