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Tony Frank

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Posts posted by Tony Frank

  1. On 12/22/2015 at 6:32 PM, Bobbieaware said:

    Dare I say Elder Joseph Smith may have speculated incorrectly on this one? If the Family Proclaimation carries the weight of Scripture -- and I believe it does -- then the words of the united First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve trump the speculations of a lone apostle who was looking through a glass darkly. Note that Elder Smith's final statement is prefaced by the words "I take it," which is tantamount to saying that what he was about to say was only speculative.

    Taking my cue from the Family Proclaimation, I personally believe men will always be men and women will always be women in the eternities, even in the lower kingdoms of glory. In fact, I believe men and women will still be attracted to each other and desire to form loving relationships with each other, but that such relationships will be experienced in a less-exalted manner than will the male/female relationships as experienced in the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom. Though this opinion of mine is admittedly based partially on speculation, I find it very difficult to believe men and women are not going to be resurrected anatomically correct. And if they are resurrected anatomically correct, with every organ and even the very hairs of the head being properly placed in the body for all eternity, I find it difficult to imagine men won't continue to feel and act like men and women won't continue to feel and act like women.

    I do not think Joseph Fielding Smith's words at at odds with the Proclamation on the Family. His point was that "men and women" (his words) in these kingdoms will not serve their purpose, "neither man nor woman," which is "just what the so-called Christian world expects." Latter-day Saints know that our objective is eternal progression in which we fulfill our divine purpose.

  2. On 12/21/2015 at 7:44 AM, consiglieri said:

    Your comment also brings up the question as to how God is supposed to keep the men and women in the lesser kingdoms from having procreative sexual relations unless some kind of action is taken.

    This is where I think Joseph Fielding Smith was going with his speculations.

    If everybody's "parts" are still up and working through the resurrection, how are they to be kept separated?

    I mean, we know they won't do as they are told, right?

    That's what got them into a lesser kingdom in the first place.



    Those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms cannot progress any further. Hence, there is no "purpose" to functioning genitalia in those kingdoms.

    The Proclamation on the Family is true:"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

  3. 5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

    I enjoy these speculative discussions with you, CV.

    My question keeps coming back to whose speculations we should be more inclined to adopt: (1) Joseph Fielding Smith's speculations regarding "neither man nor woman"; or, (2) The Proclamation's speculation that (apparently) everybody in the eternities is gendered as part of their "purpose."

    Joseph Fielding Smith was speaking of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms when he spoke those words. Look at his words in context from Doctrines of Salvation.



    PROCREATION LIMITED TO CELESTIAL BODIES. Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior’s does, as described by John. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.

    In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.

    Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever.

    Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be — neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.


    The Proclamation on the Family states, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose," but we can see from Joseph Fielding Smith's words that gender will serve no "purpose" in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms.

  4. On 12/12/2015 at 0:56 PM, kryoung1983 said:

    I believe that most things in the gospel make logical sense. But the concept of no beginning, that is something that is hard to wrap your head around. Joseph Smith said in the sermon in the grove that, 

    "If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it."  I remember that Brigham Young once remarked that he didn't know how many gods there were, but there was never a time when there were not gods doing what our father is doing. 

    So how is this possible? Is there any scientific or logical answers that could make this possible? Perhaps related to other dimensions? Is our concept of time false. I was thinking that perhaps the effects of the atonement are not linear. If so what would be the relationship between say the atonement and the nature of time? I am way out of my depth here but maybe there are people more intelligent than I that might have some theories. 

    Those of us who receive celestial glory/eternal progression will understand all things, including the doctrine to which Joseph Smith was referring. Those who receive terrestrial or telestial glory and thus have no progression will not understand it, which is part of their torment.

  5. People can have their genitals surgically mutilated and then claim they have a different “gender,” but they still have the same biological properties with which they were born.

    Men have never had ovaries, or fallopian tubes, or a uterus, or a cervix, and having their genitals mutilated will not give them those biological properties. Women always have those biological properties, and an operation to become a “man” does not change that.

  6. None of the poll choices reflect the truth. On page 477 of History of the Church, Volume Two, the Prophet Joseph Smith addressed the assembly and said:


    The Melchizedek High Priesthood was no other than the Priesthood of the Son of God; that there are certain ordinances which belong to the Priesthood from which flow certain results; and the Presidents or Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven.

    We obviously do not need "formal, published (that is, canonized in scripture) revelation" to know the mind and will of God to the Church. 

  7. God has used dreams to show things to people throughout time. Maybe the 80-ish guy was not ready until now, and maybe the currently serving elders would dismiss such a dream. God works in mysterious ways. There is no reason to dismiss the story. Worst thing that can happen is the 80-ish guy wastes time seeing a Church video, and the best thing that can happen is he gets baptized.

  8. 1 hour ago, cinepro said:

    But the star wasn't just there the night Jesus was born:

    This was months or years after Jesus' birth.  So are we now theorizing that there were "days without night" during the time the magi were journeying as well? 

    Not to mention that having Joseph, Mary and Jesus living in Bethlehem months or years after Jesus' birth would seem to contradict Luke 2:39...

     1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

     2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east and are come to worship him.

     3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

     4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

     5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judæa: for thus it is written by the prophet,

     6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

     7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

     8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

     9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

     10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

     11 ¶And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

     12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

  9. 27 minutes ago, cinepro said:

    Sorry, but assuming a round planet and two points on opposite sides of the globe (Bethlehem and Zarahemla), I don't think the physics on this work out.  Either the star is rotating around the planet in geosynchronous orbit, or it is stationary relative to the planet's rotation and giving light to the "dark" side of the planet, but not remaining in the same spot over Bethlehem.

    The author of the song did not know about the Nephites in the western hemisphere and must have assumed the star was the source of the light. The point is that the earth had a great light during the night, and it is, for some reason, mentioned in this song.

  10. I noticed today that in the second verse of The First Noel, which was published seven years before the Book of Mormon, it says the shepherds saw a star that "gave great light" to the earth and "continued both day and night."


    They looked up and saw a star, shining in the East beyond them far,
    And to the earth it gave great light, and so it continued both day and night.


    The "great light" on the earth that continued during the night corresponds to the Book of Mormon description of the Savior's birth in 3 Nephi 1:15.


    For behold, at the going down of the sun there was no darkness; and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.


    Samuel the Lamanite prophesied of the event in Helaman 14:3-4.


    And behold, this will I give unto you for a sign at the time of his coming; for behold, there shall be great lights in heaven, insomuch that in the night before he cometh there shall be no darkness, insomuch that it shall appear unto man as if it was day.

    Therefore, there shall be one day and a night and a day, as if it were one day and there were no night; and this shall be unto you for a sign; for ye shall know of the rising of the sun and also of its setting; therefore they shall know of a surety that there shall be two days and a night; nevertheless the night shall not be darkened; and it shall be the night before he is born.

    Keep that in mind this Christmas season when you hear or sing The First Noel. No other Church has scripture verifying this truth.

  11. 1 hour ago, Zakuska said:

    Personally I like what the Lord taught on this subject...

    John 9

    1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
    2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
    3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
    4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

    This man's pre-existance valiantness or lack there of had nothing to do with his disability.

    19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

    Then why didn't Harold B Lee know that? Hadn't he read the New Testament before?


    Jesus explained what the situation was for "this man" in particular, but the disciples obviously knew there was a doctrine concerning man's behavior in the pre-existence and how it factors into his afflictions in this life.

  12. 4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

    This is what prophet Harold B Lee said about the disabled and different race people. Is this okay for him to have said? "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations."  What kind of prophet from the 20th century talks like that?

    Thanks VGJ. You have opened my eyes. Since God has seen fit to afflict people in Africa in such horrendous ways, it must mean that God is not fair and Harold B. Lee was wrong.. I notice that things are going well where the gospel is preached in Africa.

    How about China with their forced abortions? It must mean that God is not fair and Harold B. Lee was wrong. BTW, the gospel is not preached in China yet.

  13. 44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

    This is all very well, but it doesn't fit some of the descriptions used in scripture.

    1. If First Estates were just "Pre-Earth life" then the 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven can't be said to have lost their first estates.  They still have them being still in their preearth spirit condition (until the final judgement).

    2. Second Estates, the condition we are now on earth having physical bodies.  Ok.  So if we keep our physical bodies do we keep our second estates?   Do only those who are Celestialized keep their second estates?  Do only those who inherit this earth as joint heirs (ie Celestialized AND exalted) with Christ keep their second estates?

    What is the "estate" - the planet?  the bodies?  the inheritance?  the glory?  Do we really know?



    Did you ignore my post above? The "first estate" was with our Heavenly Father.  1/3 part of the hosts of heaven lost their first estate when they were thrown out for rejecting the eternal plan of salvation.

    The earth is the second estate. Its final destiny is to become glorified and exalted (D&C 77:1–2; 130:8–9). The earth will become an eternal inheritance of those who have lived worthy of a celestial glory (D&C 88:14–26). They will enjoy the presence of the Father and the Son (D&C 76:62). Hence, those who are worthy of celestial glory "keep their second estate" and "have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever," while those who receive terrestrial or telestial glory do not keep their second estate.

  14. 8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

    I don't explicitly disagree with anything here (had to happen eventually ;)).

    Although your second point does make me wonder - You claim that the earth is the second estate you get to keep.  So what was the first?  If I left Heavenly Father's kingdom to come to earth, did I keep my first estate?  I don't see how I can keep the earth and another location, and moving on to the third estate will be yet another location.  I'm not sure the earth is the second estate.  Perhaps you are right though, but if you are then are 3rd estate would have to be the earth we create when we become Gods.

    But then I'm not sure estates are bodies either. Lucifer and his angels lost their first estate but still have spirit bodies.  You state that those in the Telestial and Terrestrial will not have their second estate, but they will have resurrected bodies.

    I DO think what we consider to be each "estate" guides a lot of our thinking though.I'm not convinced that "estate" is a location or a body.   But I think you are right that it is more likely to be a location than a body type.




    As I stated above from the book of Abraham: "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon [They will be added upon by getting bodies.];

    "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate [Satan and his angels did not keep their first estate and will not receive a kingdom of glory, which means they shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate];

    "and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever . . . . And the second was angry [that would be Satan who was angry], and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him."

    Life with our Heavenly Father was our first estate. We kept our first estate by supporting His eternal plan of salvation. Satan and his angels did not support the plan and lost their first estate.

    Earth's final destiny is to become glorified and exalted (D&C 77:1–2; 130:8–9). The earth will become an eternal inheritance of those who have lived worthy of a celestial glory (D&C 88:14–26). They will enjoy the presence of the Father and the Son (D&C 76:62). Hence, those who are worthy of celestial glory "keep their second estate" and "have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever," while those who receive terrestrial or telestial glory do not keep their second estate.

  15. 19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

    You raise a couple of interesting questions (highlighted for ease):

    1. Which Celestial Kingdom are you referring to?  Because the Celestial Kindgom in which we will dwell will be this earth when it receives its resurrection.  So did we start out in God's Celestial Kingdom before inheriting our own? (D&C 88:17-20/TPJS 181)

    2. If only those who receive a Celestial glory keep their "second estate", then second estate cannot refer to the physical body gained here on earth - because the Telestial and Terrestrial are also resurrected with their physical bodies, only less light.  So what is the "second estate"?  What do the Celestial get to keep that the other kingdoms don't, because it's not physical bodies?

    Our Heavenly Father had a glorified Celestial body when we were spirit children in His presence. The Savior rose with a glorified Celestial body three days after His crucifixion. They were and still are in a Celestial Kingdom. This earth will also become a Celestial Kingdom.

    The second estate is having a body here on earth, but those receiving Telestial and Terrestrial glories will no longer be on earth after the final judgment. The Celestial earth will be for those who receive Celestial glory. The "earth" is the second estate that we keep. Everyone gets a second estate when they come to earth and get a body, but only those worthy of Celestial glory keep their second estate.





  16. 43 minutes ago, filovirus said:

    Can't seem to find an answer to these questions. Any recommendations on where to look or insight is welcome.

    Is the spirit world considered part of the second estate? If it is , would mortal life be considered "second estate part 1" and the spirit world "second estate part 2"? Or is the spirit world not part of the second estate? I've always understood that those who keep their second estate will receive exaltation. Many people won't have the opportunity to accept the Gospel until the spirit world.

    We are to obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. The ordinances carry on through the spirit world, but obviously many parts of the Law do not. Law of chastity. Law of tithing. Law of the fast. Word of Wisdom. Many others. Are those in the spirit world under a different set of laws while waiting for the resurrection? Some laws that can only be lived in the spirit world? How do they prove obedience in the spirit world?

    We had our first estate when we were spirits with our Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom. As a result of the War in Heaven, Satan did not keep his first estate. Our second estate is having a body here on earth. The earth will be an eternal inheritance of those who have lived worthy of a celestial glory, and those who receive celestial glory are the ones who "keep their second estate."

    In Abraham 3:26 & 28, "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon [They will be added upon by getting bodies.]; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate [Satan and his angels will not receive a kingdom of glory]; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever . . . . And the second was angry [that would be Satan who was angry], and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

    It has never been revealed what it is like to "live according to God in the spirit" after someone accepts the Gospel in the spirit world, and it has never been revealed what it is like to preach the gospel in the spirit world. But Joseph Smith did say, “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”


  17. Your CFR fails. You propose that polygamy is required for a fullness of joy and exaltation. 19th century prophets and apostles have taught this I agree. Has it been codified as official LDS doctrine.

    And yes personally I think the idea that polygamy is required for the highest reward God has for humans is hooey.


    On the contrary, polygamy is certainly NOT required for celestial glory, but rejecting any of Jesus Christ's doctrine will most certainly keep someone out of the celestial kingdom.


    My post, which you obviously misinterpreted, stated:

    As far as the "next life" goes, any man or woman who receives celestial glory will have a fullness of joy, and it will not matter in the least to a woman if her husband has more than one wife. If polygamy in the celestial kingdom is a problem for a woman in this life, then she will not receive celestial glory.
  18. CFR please.


    So, you are taking the position that a woman will receive celestial glory if, when she stands before the judgment bar of Jesus Christ, she tells the Him that she has a problem with her husband having more than one wife in the celestial kingdom. How can anyone have a "fulness of joy" if they are unhappy about what the celestial kingdom is like?


    There are many Latter-day scriptures in which Christ tells us that we will have a fulness of joy.


    "But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever."


    "And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy."


    "And whoso is found a faithful, a just, and a wise steward shall enter into the joy of his Lord and shall inherit eternal life."


    "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy."


    Even the Bible states in Psalms 16:11. "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

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