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Kafiristan

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Posts posted by Kafiristan

  1. 5 hours ago, theplains said:

    I think this is best examined when one realises the Book of Mormon teaches that one 
    cannot progress after this mortal life.

    I'll quote some of the passages I found.
     
    "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
    day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). The mortal 
    time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 
    41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 9:25-27).

    Mosiah 2:32-33 - "But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among 
    you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 
    For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for 
    if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh 
    damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, 
    having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

    Mosiah 2:38-39 - "Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an 
    enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively 
    sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the 
    Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an 
    unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto 
    you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a 
    never-ending torment."

    Mosiah 15:22-27 - "And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that 
    have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, 
    shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first 
    resurrection. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have 
    eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. And these are those 
    who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before 
    Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus 
    the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first 
    resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children 
    also have eternal life. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought 
    to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their 
    sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, 
    that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and 
    would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first fresurrection.
    Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord 
    hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny 
    himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim."
                                                               
    Mosiah 16:10-11 - Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption 
    shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to 
    be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be 
    evil-If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they 
    be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, 
    who hath subjected them, which is damnation.

    Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
    yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
    now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech 
    of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after 
    this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not 
    improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there 
    can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
    that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that 
    same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, 
    that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For 
    behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, 
    ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
    therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, 
    and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

    2 Nephi 9:25 - Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there 
    is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where 
    there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, 
    because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement 
    satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to 
    them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, 
    and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored 
    to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. But wo unto him 
    that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and 
    that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his 
    state!"

    Alma 40:11-14 - "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the 
    resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of 
    all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all 
    men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And 
    then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received 
    into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, 
    where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then 
    shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, 
    they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil 
    works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and 
    take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there 
    shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own 
    iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the 
    souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the 
    fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as 
    well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection."

    Doctrine and Covenants 76:81 seems to indicate that people will be released from hell 
    to be welcomed into a kingdom more glorious than their life on earth before they died 
    (contrast with Alma 34:32-35; 40:11-14; and 2 Nephi 9:25). 

    "And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even 
    as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 
    These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.  
    These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. 
    These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, 
    until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work."

    Doctrine and Covenants 63:17 is a reference to liars, whoremongers, and sorcerers being 
    cast into the lake of fire but Doctrine and Covenants 76:103,106 has these telestials 
    (liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers) leaving hell for a kingdom of glory.

    Another 'revelation' (D&C 101:65-66) has the wicked (those who don't become gods) cursed 
    with everlasting fire.

    "Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and 
    the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be 
    crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward 
    every man according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and 
    their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire".

    Hope this helps,
    Jim

    Thanks for your reply, Jim.  When you look at the Standard Works there is very little on which to base a hope of advancing from one kingdom to another.  Many modern prophets and apostles have spoken both for and against the idea of progressing from kingdom to kingdom.  Additional, clarifying revelation is required to put the matter to rest. 

    However, as far as I am aware, there isn't disagreement about opportunity to progress, repent, and change in the Postmortal Spirit World.  As recently as the April 2020 LDS General Conference, Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught "our progress need not conclude with the end of mortality."  Just as you noted in one of the scriptures you quoted, Oaks taught that "we are told that this life is the time to prepare to meet God and that we should not procrastinate our repentance (see Alma 34:32–33)."  "Still", he continues, "we are taught that in the spirit world the gospel is preached even to 'the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth' (Doctrine and Covenants 138:29) and that those taught there are capable of repentance in advance of the Final Judgment (see verses 31–34, 57–59)." 

    It is far better to live the Gospel (if one has access to it in this life) and repent while on earth than to wait to try to change and repent in the Spirit World.  Working to conquer and master one's passions and appetites without the very tool (your mortal body) one needs to use to do it when you knew you should have and could have done it on earth doesn't sound like an easy task even with God's help, but yet, a way will be provided for those who sincerely want to change and repent. 

  2. 10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

    I don't know.  What do you think they'll want to do?  If the same spirit that possesses a person in mortality possesses him in the hereafter, isn't that a clue?  Celestial will (want to) do as celestial is, terrestial will (want to) do as terrestrial is, and telestial will (want to) do as telestial is.  Brad Wilcox once wrote that we myopic mortals have it backward: We think that God is the stern taskmaster who will be telling us we can't stay in his presence when in reality, it is we who, because we don't feel comfortable in a celestial environment, will be saying "Get me out of here!" while God has been pleading with us the whole time we were in mortality to do the things that will make us celestial people.

    If your response to that is, "Well, 99.9% of mortals never had a chance!", we're judged according to what we know.  The more we know, the harsher will be our judgment, and the less we know, the more lenient will be our judgment.

    Good questions and good thoughts.  We know that when we die the same spirit/attitudes/inclinations we had in life will continue with us in the hereafter but there is still opportunity for learning and repentance in the postmortal spirit world.  What we will want to do can change as we continue learning and gaining knowledge and experience.  Is that continued opportunity to change limited to the postmortal spirit world before the Final Judgment or will it continue in one of the three kingdoms of glory?  IDK (but desperately want to know!)  :O)  Thanks for your reply.

  3. 18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

    Don't know but they will be happy. Well, happier than people here are anyways. They are given salvation and it beats the non-atonement fate of us all. I also suspect it beats what would have happened if we had stayed in premortality.

    Also don't know on raising a kingdom later. My gut says "yes" because I can see why God would not tell us that if it were true. Then again it is easy to construct a scriptural argument for no progress.

    I agree they will be happier and that think that God will give them everything they are able and willing to receive (whatever that means in a Telestial or Terrestrial context).  As for progressing from one kingdom to the next, I've always thought that in line with the doctrine of eternal progression, as a person continues to learn and gain experience on earth and in the spirit world (and hopefully in the kingdoms of glory?), their perspective and understanding will grow and they will see what they are missing out on by choosing to live the laws that qualify them only for the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms.  They will realize it will be worth the effort to repent/change/obey/do whatever is required to come where God the Father is and partake of the blessings that can only be given there.  We know for sure there is opportunity to grow and repent in the Spirit World after death in advance of the Final Judgement.  Maybe all of what I just wrote only happens in the Spirit World before the Final Judgement and not after one has been assigned a kingdom but in my mind it seems consistent with the justice and mercy of God to allow for it in the lower kingdoms, even if it is a much slower process than it would have been if repentance and obedience to Celestial Laws had occurred in mortality or the Spirit World.  Thanks for your reply. 

  4. 23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

    It’s extremely difficult to understand why the inheritors of the Terrestrial Kingdom will be ministered to (taught toward the end goal of improvement) by Jesus Christ himself, and the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be ministered to by angels and by ministers from the Terrestrial Kingdom, if there isn’t a road for improvement and progression in light and truth for all those who will be so taught. What would be the point of this dynamic ongoing program of spiritual instruction in things pertaining to the Kingdom of God if those in the lower kingdoms of glory are incapable of growth and improvement?

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I too have wondered about the point and purpose of the ministering of those in the Celestial to those in the Terrestrial and those in the Terrestrial ministering to those in the Telestial if it is not to teach them and help them further learn, grow, and repent so they can then move up to a higher kingdom.  An interesting quote (below) I came across attributed to Apostle J. Reuben Clark, Jr. infers progression from kingdom to kingdom is possible:

    I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. (Church News, p. 3 , 23 April 1960)

    I know that an article in the Church News doesn't constitute revealed doctrine, but this and other writings and opinions by church leaders since Joseph Smith's time give hope that progression from kingdom to kingdom is at least a possibility, one that the Lord has not chosen to make clear to us at this time.  Apostle Bruce R. McConkie didn't like the idea of progression from kingdom to kingdom at all and condemned it in an address as a "deadly heresy" (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/) but I don't know that his one talk negates everything else said by prophets and apostles who preceded him.  I suppose it will take revelation to put the matter to rest for those of us here in mortality.

  5. All,

    Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

  6. I was talking to the elders and sisters yestarday and they were saying there is a new program that says that if you are having too many emotional problems (but not too serious to warrant getting sent home) you can go home for a couple of months and then come back out. Has anyone heard of this being done elsewhere? This mission seems to be putting this in practice as in the last 6 weeks 7 or 8 went home, how many will come back I have no idea

     

    Do you (or anyone else) know if the missionaries, when they go home for this new program, are still missionaries?  That is, are they still required to wear their name tag, dress in appropriate missionary clothing, do missionary activities?  What are they doing at home?  What are they doing to take care of the emotional problems?  Seeing a psychologist?  Hanging out with family?  Just curious if anyone knows. 

     

    Years ago, my cousin tore his ACL while still in the MTC.  He had to go home to have surgery done and recuperate.  Can't remember how long he was out, but it seemed like it was at least 2 if not 3 months.  While he was out, he was instructed to not watch TV (though was eventually given permission to watch BYU sports), only read church/gospel-related books, and basically sit at home except when he was getting medical treatment or at church.  Anyway, the point of all this is what are these missionaries doing if they come home from their missions temporarily?  Thanks! 

  7. Nice confession, Keli.  She won't be at BYU much longer.  I don't get people like this.  Yes, we are all sexual beings.  I do not fault her for that.  However, she could have gone to any other school and fornicated with as many guys as she could seduce, but she chose to go to BYU, knowing full well that it is a church-run school with a code of conduct that prohibits pre-marital sex.  She promised to honor that code.  Now, she is publicly trying to change it?  Doesn't make any sense.  She can go to Harvard or the Wellesley College and get her "education" and bang as many guys there as she wants.  It is her choice right.  Hope she is happy with the choice to be kicked out if/when it comes.  Bas!

  8. The Restoration is ongoing.

     

    As we continue God will tear down more and more of our superstitions. It is going to be an exciting ride. Then one day I get to learn absolute truth and rule the Universe. Why would anyone want to leave just because we drop some barnacles from the good ship Zion and the ride gets faster and more exciting?Go

    Agreed.  The foundation for the restoration has been laid, much of the building builit.  But, it isn't finished yet.  "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have..."  In my opinion God can only reveal more to us when we are willing and ready to accept it.  Not that He is limited, but we are.   

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