LOSTONE

I just re-read Genesis 1 and 2 with attention to Genesis 2:5 . What is implied by that verse?

3DOP , you can compare from the Pearl of Great Price Moses 3:5

As far as loving the Lord ,God said ," if ye love me, keep my commandments . " Well, for the most part I think plants and animals fulfill the measure of their creation and are following the Lord's command. Only man seems to have that rebellious streak.

Ok... What does your response have to do with the subject of this post? Please clarify? Thanks.

P.S ... If roaches go... I so hope there is a segregation from them. They so creep me out.

Most of us have no problem with dogs and cats and horses and birds being in Heaven. The conundrum arrives when we consider insects and bacteria and viruses. A human body has many more bacteria in and on it than it has cells. Trillions of them.

To quote Strappinglad 3:7 ," Behold, there are many kingdoms and within those kingdoms can be found all forms of life, each form endowed with a breath of life given by God. All things were created spiritually before they were created physically, hence there are spiritual mosquitos and sponges and bacteria. "

The plant and animal kingdoms are not under the same covenant obligations as man. There is a form of salvation awaiting them all.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Wow.... Now this is thought provoking. What life forms do go to Heaven or at least have that possibility? All life forms including insects and bacteria or just people and animals? Very good thought to think of....

P.S... Where odes it say that animals have no souls? I have never once read anything that says or implies that animals have no souls. If there is no faith base written statement saying they don't, how can we say with such assumption that they don't and label that view as correctly stated?

I sure hope that mosquitoes and cockroaches and Black Widow spiders are not all going to be resurrected.  Having said that, I have a dog or two that would make a wonderful companion.  Joseph Smith reportedly said he wanted his favorite horse to be with him in the world to come. 

Well... maybe this depends how well you keep your place in Heaven clean or not....

In a nutshell, here is my problem with animals "in heaven".

 

I do not say that animals cannot dwell in the presence of God, but they cannot know Him. Heaven is knowing God, it is seeing Him. Heaven is more than merely not sinning. It is overcoming the facility to sin and choosing to love. We can love God and we can love the animals which reflect many of God's perfections, but they do not have the potential to rise to the dignity of man. If animals possess the faculty to know, love, and serve God, if they have immortal souls like ours, then our entire way of treating animals is wrong. We should not eat them. We should not use them as farm animals. We should not even turn them into our "pets". Instead of feeling free to sterilize them, maybe we should evangelize them and try to get them in to church where they can be happiest, worshipping the God they love?

 

But everything in my experience tells me that even my most beloved pets, my dearest kitty, lives by instinct and not intellect. I am greatly attached to her for multiple reasons, but I can not think my Mina has free will. It does not make any sense. I could more easily wish that she were human, than that I could my believe my beautiful black and white kitty has the capacity, as a cat, to appreciate the presence of God. I am not against loving our animals, I am in favor of it. But if my theology teaches they can go to heaven, it greatly affects how I view the way they are treated by humans. If animals go to Heaven, I am afraid that most of us humans should go to Hell for the way we don't recognize their dignity in God's kingdom.  

“ I do not say that animals cannot dwell in the presence of God, but they cannot know Him. Heaven is knowing God, it is seeing Him. Heaven is more than merely not sinning. It is overcoming the facility to sin and choosing to love. We can love God and we can love the animals which reflect many of God's perfections, but they do not have the potential to rise to the dignity of man. ” - How can this be valid when human babies and children die and go to Heaven and yet in many cases have little to no knowledge of God or the ability to chose God and his way? In this case, babies and children have a similar situation as animals, yet in your view point, animals don’t go to Heaven. You point failed to show that actually.

“ If animals possess the faculty to know, love, and serve God, if they have immortal souls like ours, then our entire way of treating animals is wrong. We should not eat them. We should not use them as farm animals. We should not even turn them into our "pets. Instead of feeling free to sterilize them, maybe we should evangelize them and try to get them in to church where they can be happiest, worshipping the God they love? ” - Where is it written in the Bible or any other valid place that the used and controlled must be freed in order to go to Heaven? That those who are used, abused, controlled and own don’t go to Heaven? Because as you describe it with animals, people have been used, abused, controlled and own ( as in slaves ) and yet have gone to Heaven. Again, like with the animal statement above, your remarks don not prove anything and in comparison, actually prove your thoughts incorrect.

 “ But everything in my experience tells me that even my most beloved pets, my dearest kitty, lives by instinct and not intellect. I am greatly attached to her for multiple reasons, but I can not think my Mina has free will. It does not make any sense. ” - Not true. Animals do function beyond instinct and use intellect just like people do. We act using both instinct and intellect and when looking at animals, it clearly can be seen they do it too.

“ But if my theology teaches they can go to heaven, it greatly affects how I view the way they are treated by humans. If animals go to Heaven, I am afraid that most of us humans should go to Hell for the way we don't recognize their dignity in God's kingdom. ” - This is also not true. There is scripture that clearly states that we only get judged on what we know and not punished for what we don’t know. If we don’t know how we are treating animals ( as in ownership and for food ) is wrong, than we are in ignorance and as scriptures say, not judged on that. Plus there is a lot of scripture that shows us in good will and faith using animals for work and food and yet no one is going to hell. Your point here can be disprove by Bible scripture.

You spoke of your theology. Interesting because theology isn’t the something as actual faith.

There is the issue of weather animals go to Heaven ( or any after life ) when they die. Been an issue with this subject forever and just read a story about it on the web. I don’t get why this subject is still debated. I know that The Bible may not be clear on this matter, but it is very clear on God’s love for all he created. So with that, it makes only sense that animals do go to Heaven and have an after life. Why would God love all his creations and not allow some ( like innocent animals ) to enjoy Heaven with people ( who are born in sin and wicked by nature )? No, I say God does allow animals to go to Heaven and they do have an after life. I may be wrong and may never know for sure, but for my Earth bound time, this is what I believe.

Ig God wants the dead to come back, he will allow it, but I really don't think it would be to get money or personal gains, but rather to share a message. So when these people claim this and that and they have a book or move or whatever, that just screams to me ((( FAKE ))). I could be wrong, but until I am proven wrong, I stand by this believe.

“ The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven' Recants Everything ” ... [ http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-recants-everything/ar-AA8fa4j ]

I have never believed in this kind of stuff when I hear people say it on tv or in a book or other media form. I think it’s all fake and made up for attention or money or some other personal want. This story above does not prove all similar stories are fake, but to me, it proves that there are some that are fakes. People should really look at their morals and fear judgment when they make up stuff like this. Any more so, people who want to or choose to believe stories like this should take a strong look at their faith and logic in a common sense way. Just because we want to believe something is true, does not make it true. Fake stories like the one above just shows how the devil can so easily fool people including believers. It also gives atheists another platform to use against believers.

I'm at a loss to see how anyone, of any faith, could be insulting about supporting your wife in her breast cancer concerns. Without knowing the actual context, I would almost have to assume that you misunderstood something about what was said. Is that possible? It can be pretty easy to hear something and assume it was meant in a derogatory way, only to find out (or maybe not find out) that it was meant to be a joke to lighten the mood, or something like that. Still may have been inappropriate and unsuccessful, but not necessarily with malicious intent.

I did not mistake or misunderstood their remarks. It was a very clear insult towards me without provocation or justification. There are hypocrites and fakes in all religions. None are immune to that reality. So yes, it very possible people would insult others even in the faith. It could also have been a mad moment for this person with no ill intent. I kept that in mind as well as I held back from replying. I will talk to this persona privately and see what their intent was and let them know how I took it. Out of respect to them and the group, this is best to do privately. If that does not bring resolve than I will contact the group leaders.

Last night I went to my weekly Bible study group. Been going there for years and so enjoy it and the people. However, I was insulted twice by 2 different people regarding my support of my wife in her possible breast cancer concerns. Very obvious and direct insults that I have searched my thoughts, but failed to find justifications for. I should have, but have yet to bring this matter up to the group leaders. I let the insults go without noticeable reactions from me, but I was and still very much am hurt by it. As a Christian, I accept better behavior from other Christians and believe I live true to my expectations in my own behaviors.

I am not Mormon. Just something that didn’t work out after my time studying and talking about the Mormon faith. I am a generic run of the mill, nothing special Christian. However... One thing I have always loved about my Mormon friends ( and I have a few good ones ) and about Mormons in general is the strong sense and commitment to family. That blows me away. Family is such a priority and well invested in. So cool. Mormons easily out do non-Morons ( Christians and non-Christians alike ) on commitment to family. If there is one this I have used and will continue to use in defense of Mormons even though I am not one is the fact that Mormons know what family means and how to value family. Better than anyone else I have met in and out of my own faith. Huge plus for the family values. Kind of whish I had that same thing.

I don’t know what I am going to do about these insults last night, but I know I probably need more time to calm down and heal before responding. Family isn’t about blood. It’s about the heart and Mormons seem to understand and value that. Apparently last night 2 members of my own faith didn’t get that memo.

My wife wet to the doctors today. They found 2 lumps, not 1. Both are concerning, but one is a big concern. Her family history is horrible with breast cancer so now there is a huge increase in cancer concern after today. She has to do additional scans to do, but can’t get in any sooner than mid February. She is scared, our daughter ( 8 ) is freaked out, and I am very stressed. I don’t know what else to say...

Thank you all for the support and advice. It does help and matter to me alot. I have read every reply and will follow up on the hospice and other advice given. It really does matter so thank you all. P.S... I am not LDS, but have some really great friends who are so I will be letting them in on all of this. LSD or not, it's about who is good and who cares. Thanks.

I have been off this site for over a mouth now. I don’t think anyone has really notice, but I didn’t expect anyone to. It’s just me. A nameless guy behind black typed computer words. Nothing more.

Anyways, in my time away, my life has turned upside down. My mom is terminally ill and is living beyond expectations so far. If she makes it to March 9 her birthday ) it will be surprising to everyone. I assist my mom in her daily care. No other relatives as they don’t care to. No hospice as my is terminal, but still able to function rather well all things give. Plus mom would blow a gas cap if I brought in hospice. Mom has always had this horrible doom and gloom view of society and life. Constantly negative and angry. Her current situation just gives her fuel to increase it. I get it all day, every day from her. It’s hard to be around her. My wife is also dealing with possible breast cancer. They found a good size lump and her family history has breast cancer in it. Will know more as this coming week arrives. She is scared, our daughter is scared, I am scared. I love my wife. I went to my old church today as I felt I was drawn to it. It was nice being back there. Like going home again. I was welcomed back and I may return there for good. Time will tell. I am also in a huge financial disaster that was not foreseen, but could cause me to become homeless by the end of February if some sort of something major doesn’t happen to help me out. I have tired everything and it all has failed. So far, my time away from this site comes with such unfavorable issues as an update and ya know what? I feel very much alone and helpless. End of update.

Well, I am not sure if this is the right way to say it. My heart needs? My heart wants? It’s family. It’s always has been family for me. My heart and soul for family and I have none. I always new I was a family man at the core of who I am no matter the trash I cover myself up with and others see. I never had a real family growing up. I was adopted at age 2 ½ into a very abusive and dysfunctional group of people who happen to be related to each other. They were never family. There was no real love, just sugar coated crap to fake love for what they wanted at the time. No true connections or meaning among them beyond their abuse and dysfunction. As an adult, with my ex, I thought I found what I was looking for. What my heart and soul could melt into with such joy for ever and ever. Than my daughter was born and boom, I had the family I always wanted. But being the jerk I was, after so many fights between my ex and me, I just gave up on caring or investing into my marriage emotionally. That was the end of any family I had or could of had. That was my death. Now that my ex and daughter visited for several weeks for the Christmas season, I reconnected to the thoughts and feelings of family again. I felt alive and happy. I had family again. But they had to leave and along with my moment of family. I had to die again in heart and soul when they left. Is my heart and soul needing a family or wanting a family? Does it matter if it is a need or a want? I just know what I feel and I know it’s 100 percent real and it hurts like hell and there is no solution for the pain. None. I am so falling depressed. What good is a man without the love of family? Without family, life seems so pointless. Anyways...

Well, I am not sure if this is the right way to say it. My heart needs? My heart wants? It’s family. It’s always has been family for me. My heart and soul for family and I have none. I always new I was a family man at the core of who I am no matter the trash I cover myself up with and others see. I never had a real family growing up. I was adopted at age 2 ½ into a very abusive and dysfunctional group of people who happen to be related to each other. They were never family. There was no real love, just sugar coated crap to fake love for what they wanted at the time. No true connections or meaning among them beyond their abuse and dysfunction. As an adult, with my ex, I thought I found what I was looking for. What my heart and soul could melt into with such joy for ever and ever. Than my daughter was born and boom, I had the family I always wanted. But being the jerk I was, after so many fights between my ex and me, I just gave up on caring or investing into my marriage emotionally. That was the end of any family I had or could of had. That was my death. Now that my ex and daughter visited for several weeks for the Christmas season, I reconnected to the thoughts and feelings of family again. I felt alive and happy. I had family again. But they had to leave and along with my moment of family. I had to die again in heart and soul when they left. Is my heart and soul needing a family or wanting a family? Does it matter if it is a need or a want? I just know what I feel and I know it’s 100 percent real and it hurts like hell and there is no solution for the pain. None. I am so falling depressed. What good is a man without the love of family? Without family, life seems so pointless. Anyways...

What about a lie to protect the innocent of another? Wouldn’t that be the greater good overcoming the truth?

Is there ever a situation where the ‘greater good’ causes the truth to be denied or excluded? Has this happen before in the history of a faith? Should it ever happen?

My ex will be here by next week and stay as long as she wants. We will be working together to organized my mother’s personal matters, get a solid game plane in places, and let our daughter spend time with my mom. It will be busy and emotional alot. I am grateful I don’t have to do this alone and that my ex is strong enough as a person and in heart to do this.

At the risk of being offensive you describe her in this and other posts as mean and negative and trying to self-medicate with an alcohol problem. Most people would consider someone like that to be a failure in at least some aspects of their life. I know I would.

My mom has issues, but having issues doesn’t make you a failure. It makes you human. If having issues make you a failure, than everyone on this planet is a failure. Thanks for your ignorant judgments. Good to see you are a success story!

Hello Lostone...

First, have you talked to your siblings about some help with her care?  I'm afraid if you keep this up it will eventually break you... or make you even more negative than you are.

It is hard to respond to you although I want to encourage you... my life experience has been so different... my mom's life matters to me now so much that I ache for her, as does my sister, and she has been gone 19 years... and my dad has been gone 16 years... between the two of them we have such wonderful memories that we look back on all the time and just yearn for them... Yes I know that we are fortunate, but certainly not the only ones who have such memories of love and family. 

And you are not alone in your experiences... but that doesn't make it any easier however... Have you talked to your mother about her behavior?  Does she realize what she is doing? 

Can you get one of your siblings or someone trusted to come in and give you an occasional break for a few days?  This constant everyday stress is draining you... this should not be all on your shoulders, and no one should have to feel that their life here sucks... you must try to find help from your siblings...  before you lose yourself to being a bitter, shriveled man... who will not be able to bounce back once she is gone.

I do wish you well and send prayers...

 

GG

Thanks. I will not become a bitter old man or shrivel up just because all this is happening with mom or after her death. I am a lot stronger than that and I am a survivor of way worst things than all of this. This is a temporary effect I am just trying to survive ( and will ), but nothing that will break me.

My siblings don’t get along with me for 2 key reasons. Reason 1 is because I forgave mom years ago and started being there for her. They don’t feel that is justified. They still hold anger at her for the childhood she put us through. I understand their anger, but not the practicability of holding onto it. Anger is self killing and I won’t do that. Reason 2 is because their thinking and behavior is a lot like mom’s. Similar on many aspects and I am so not like them. This makes it very hard to get along with them. Thank goodness I am adopted and don’t share the same DNA.

As to my mom, I have talked to her so many times about her behavior only to get excuses for it and why it’s justify to continue. No real thought from her to want to change her behavior. I have tried to get others she knows to talk to her with the same end results. She seems to want to see things her way and keep them that way. It makes it very hard.

I have alot more to say about all of this, but for the sake of misrepresenting things, I will leave my remarks limited to theses here. Thanks again.

Live is never meaningless to the person who lived it.   It is the time to prepare to meet God, to learn what you needed to learn.  You describe your mother as a failure in important ways.  But you have no knowledge of whether she has done her personal best, even though that is really lame and hurt lots of people.   God judges not just on what a person does, but also on what her intentions are.

 

And Heavenly Parents and her Savior know your mother and love her.   They've known her for a very long time and they know everything about her (unlike you or your siblings).   She is not meaningless to Them.

 

Be sure you hook up with hospice, who will make sure she gets enough pain medicine so she can deal with the terminal illness.   (BTW, she was going to die sometime, even before you received THIS dx.   In that respect nothing has changed with this new knowledge.)

 

Your service to her will change you.   It will bring you closer to your Heavenly Parents and Savior.    That should help you feel the meaning that you now wonder about.

What?! I have not described my mother as a failure in anyway. How dare you make such an insulting and judgmental remark. And who are you to say what I do know about my mom and don’t know as in her best or lack of, to which I never made a statement upon. You got some nerve to speak as if you know such things. I have a hard time taking in consideration your entire reply when the beginnings of such are so insulting and offensive. I will no longer reply to you nor seek out anything regarding you.

As a Christian, I often feel like I shouldn’t be ‘dealing’ with death but rather ‘accepting’ death as it is a transformation of limited life to ever lasting life. I feel guilty in a  way when I am unable to make peace with death and the life that once was, but that is what I find myself doing these days.

A few weeks back, my aging mom, who already has multiple health issues, was diagnosed with a serious health issue that has no cure and very limited treatment for her comforts. This came as unexpected as it could over simple head aches she was having. She will die. This is a fact of her condition, but when is hard to say. It will probably be painful for her sadly. Mom has really gotten mean towards me. I am a dumping grounds more and more for her anger and negative emotions. Just me, not my siblings. Me, the only one who has forgiven her for the horrible childhood she put us through and the only one now who cares for her and helps her. Mom has become angry and mean and it hits me constantly. It’s very hard on me.

I have been wondering more about the life we leave behind than the life we are going to upon the arrival of death. What is the point of life we live on Earth if it becomes so invisible to everyone and forgotten after we die? Most of us live a life that is already invisible and meaningless to so many others on this planet, but for the limited few, it has value and purpose. Even to us it does. But after we die, the life we live seems to fade out as if not ever there to begin with. That bothers me alot and seems to be a pointless aspect of who we are. We live, survive, suffer, give, do, so on and on so much while we are alive and then it all goes away as if it was never here to begin with. Why? Why do we have to go through all of this just to have it erased so easily after we are gone? It’s not the after life that bothers me, but the before life that does.

Anyways, I am under a lot of stress and baggage so maybe I am just over thinking and feeling things too much. Thank God there is an after life because this before life sucks.

I have been assisting my aging mom in her daily life for a while now. She has dealt with several health issues and some are very much still on going. Out of all her kids, I am the only one who has forgiven her for the drunken violent childhood she put us through so I am the only one who dares to help her now a days. I am also the youngest and the only one who is adopted. Anyways. My mom was sober for a hand full of years and yet her personality did not improve much. Always has been the first one to see all the negative possibilities in everything and create so much unjustifiable drama. Turn a positive 4 into a negative 12 every time. Now she has returned to drinking and that really just amps the crap up and brings back a lot of the childhood we all had to survive. This is all bad enough, but it just got even worst. ( Of course it would. It is life, right?! )

This past Friday, mom was given a really negative diagnose over what we all thought was a simple issue she was having. It was unexpected and harsh. Saturday, mom got drunk of her butt and became very verbally hostile to me. Just me. Insulting and rude as all sin could be. The one person who is trying to be there for her, me, is the one person who is getting royally dumped on. Never the less, I took her crap and chose not to turn my back on her. Come Sunday, after I got done with my church things, I talked to mom. I made it clear to her that as much as I love her, I will not have this drunken crap put onto me all over again. I will not relive my childhood with her, especially sense I am the only one who is will to help her. My love is strong, but has limits to how much abuse it will allow me to take. I will not do this drunken crap again. If it happens, I’m out for good and she will have to find someone else to help her. She seem to understand and was apologetic. We will see what she does. I prefer for her to go talk to someone, but she flat out refuses and has every excuse in the world to refuse. I can’t make her legally so I can only do so much. Yesterday was Monday. Her doctor called us back in days earlier than planned. The blood work from Friday came back showing ( confirming ) the diagnoses already given. No additional tests or opinions need to be given. Mom is a healthy time bomb that can go off without warning at anytime. It’s the reality of her healthy.

Mom has other health issues that complicate things and need to be continue to care for. Mom has been given additional medication to help her, but the medications are not a cure. More of a comfort and slight better odds of prevention. No actual cure is possible. So everyday with mom is medications, situations, so on and on and with some attitude I must deal with. Mom’s end will come and it will not be peaceful or fast. It’s a reality of life that sucks, but can not be modified.

I am burnt out. I am so burnt out and have zero help or support. I will not turn my back on mom, but if she does that drunk thing again on me, I will make necessary adjustments for my own personal health. Please... Any thoughts?

Pretty dim view of humans, who are divine sons of God with potential to become like Him, and having a pre-existence of serving Him.

I am not surprised I gotten an insulting reply to this post. It's the web and so goes the insults. Never the less, there is a point with in this post I was making that you don't seem to have picked up on. Maybe others will. Dim or not.