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InCognitus

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Posts posted by InCognitus

  1. On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Your full reply is here.

    Is Isaiah 11:12 ("And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts 
    of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth
    ") a 
    reference to Joseph Smith?  I just wanted to confirm your belief.

    Is this a physical gathering instead or a spiritual gathering, or both?

    You keep asking the same questions over and over again that I’ve already answered.  (I feel like I’m watching reruns of Gilligan’s Island again and thinking to myself, “I’ve seen this before, I know how it ends.  Watch your head, Skipper!”).

    My answer to the above is the same as what we discussed previously.  I explained, on November 28, that the gathering of Israel is “of literal Israel into the various stakes of Zion, and into their own lands.”   I also explained on December 5 (in commenting on separate verses in Ezekiel 37:21-22) that the assembling and gathering of these people is stated (exactly like it is in Isaiah 11:12) to be a separate step that occurs prior to them returning to their own lands.  And on December 7, I further explained that literal Israel is being gathered by having the law written in their hearts, and if they are literally of the tribes of Israel and come to Christ, then they aren’t “spiritual Israel”.   And in my last post on February 3, I pointed out that “I don’t consider literal Jews being gathered into the church of Jesus Christ as 'spiritual' Israel… They are literally Israel and are literally being gathered.  They just haven’t all returned to their own soil (wherever that may be) as of yet. “

    In my mind the only people who would be called “spiritual Israel” are those who are not literally descendants of the House of Israel, but they are adopted into one of the tribes.  But that is not what I’m talking about above.

    What do you mean by “spiritual Israel”?  Or why do you keep asking this question?

    As for who that person is in Isaiah 11:12, it is God doing the gathering through the work of his representatives on the earth (starting with Joseph Smith and others).

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Yes. I'm familiar with that. The issue is that Ephraim is the firstborn in the family of Jacob.  
    He is not the firstborn in the families of the other sons.  Each of the sons of Jacob had their 
    own firstborn.  

    The point is that Ephraim is the firstborn in the family of Jacob (Israel).  The firstborn of the other sons doesn’t matter to the question of who is the firstborn of Israel, so why even bring this up?

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Firstborn does not necessarily mean first born.

    Obviously.

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Exodus 4:22 says, "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even 
    my firstborn
    ."

    Speaking of David (verses 20), Psalm 89:27 says, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher 
    than the kings of the earth
    ."

    Jeremiah 31:9 says, "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: 
    I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not 
    stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn
    ."

    The context for Jeremiah 31:9 is not the same as 1 Chronicles 5.  This can be seen when you 
    read Jeremiah 30 too.  Jeremiah is writing to those in the northern Kingdom, where the 10
    tribes (where the tribe of Ephraim is predominant; not Ephraim the individual) is called the
    firstborn. 

    We see in Jeremiah 31:1-40 a continued theme of restoration that started in Chapter 30. All 
    the people of God are being addressed, though Jeremiah speaks specifically to the northern 
    kingdom and specifically to Judah at certain points.

    When God speaks of Ephraim as His firstborn I think it was, most likely, a message of reassurance 
    to the 10 tribes which had vanished into Assyrian bondage more than a hundred years earlier.  
    No doubt they regarded themselves as lost.

    Back in my post on December 7, I said “The designation of Ephraim is often given in the Old Testament to represent all of the ten northern tribes of Israel.”   So I have always acknowledged that the northern ten tribes are sometimes referred to as Ephraim in many places in the Old Testament and especially in the book of Jeremiah.  

    But this was a question about why Ephraim is called the “firstborn” in Jeremiah 31:9. There is simply no reason and no other precedent for the northern 10 tribes to be called the “firstborn” other than that the tribe of Ephraim was designated as the firstborn as I explained in my prior post.  I do agree that when God speaks of Ephraim as his firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9 it is a message of reassurance. But it is also because that Ephraim (as a tribe) was singled out in the blessing of Moses as playing a part in the gathering of Israel, which was what Jeremiah was talking about in the context of chapter 31.

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:
    Quote

    In Isaiah 49:3-6 (the verse I had quoted that you are responding to), it is discussing the Lord's "servant" that is to "raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel".  That is Ephraim's role, as designated by the blessing given to him

    Isaiah chapter 49 is a prophecy about Jesus Christ.  See this in-depth commentary.

    https://www.villagechurchofwheaton.org/docs/sermon2006-05-28.pdf

    Remember, we were discussing Isaiah 49:3-6. 

    Please quote the portion of that “in-depth commentary” where it says Isaiah 49:3-6 must refer to Jesus Christ only and thus contradicts what I posted to you on January 27, where I quoted Isaiah 49:3-6 and pointed out that Paul and Barnabas said that Isaiah 49:3-6 was talking about them.  This is what I said in that post:

    “The ‘servant’ of the Lord in this context can have many applications.  It may be Christ.  It may be Isaiah himself.  It may be Israel as a people (as verse 3 says).  It may be Ephraim (the Lord’s firstborn – Jeremiah 31:9).  Or it may be any other servant that the Lord may send out (including Joseph Smith).  And all of these may be correct.  The fact that this could be applied to any of the Lord’s servants is born out by the fact that Paul and Barnabas considered these verses to be applicable to them:  ‘Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.’  (Acts 13:46–47)”

    Are you really saying the commentary says Isaiah 49:3-6 is only a prophecy about Jesus Christ and therefore Paul and Barnabas misused Isaiah 49:6 when they quoted it and said it was about them?  

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Please elaborate on your use of the terms "being gathered now" and "in the process of being 
    gathered for many years now".

    When do you believe the gathering of Israel started?   And do you mean physical or spiritual 
    gathering?

    Then I'll attempt your question again.

    I’ve already addressed the “physical or spiritual” gathering question above (as quoted from my prior posts), and I asked what you mean when you say “spiritual” gathering (and I explained what I mean when I say spiritual gathering above).  As I have said previously, when people who literally have descended from the lost tribes of Israel come together in Christ, it is a physical gathering of the literal house of Israel, even if they are not physically restored to the lands of their inheritance. This has been happening for some time now in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  

    But if by “physical gathering” you mean that they are literally starting to return to their homelands, then it could be said that that has also started to take place to some degree (at least for people of known Jewish decent). The Wikipedia article on the Gathering of Israel even makes note of this.  

    As for how long either of those types of gatherings have been going on, it’s hard to put an exact date on it.  But the keys to the gathering of Israel were restored to Joseph Smith by Moses in the Kirtland temple on April 3, 1836, as noted in Doctrine and Covenants 110:11.  So it would be after that time. 

    In your post on January 25, you seem to have agreed that the gathering of Israel has been happening for a while, and this is the first time you have questioned it.  

    This is what you said before:

    On 1/25/2024 at 9:40 AM, theplains said:

    I explained some of my answer above.  Isaiah 11 is a future prophecy about Christ.  
    In his ministry, the gathering of Israel started. Afterwards, the gathering of the 
    Gentiles began (I believe it began with Peter and Cornelius).  From that point on, 
    the gathering of both Israelites and Gentiles into his church has been going on
    .

    You also said this previously in your post on January 31:

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Israel, as individuals was being gathered into the church of Christ in the days of His ministry.  
    We can refer to them (including the Gentiles) as the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). But 
    Israel as a whole would be in a blinded and scattered state as you mentioned.

    I realize that you may change your views on this now given how we are defining our terms (more below), but previously you didn't seem to even question that the gathering had already begun.

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:
    Quote

    (Actually, he did appear to Joseph Smith a few times. I think the servant is likely Joseph Smith.)   Or how else could that person in Isaiah 11:10 be Christ?   Can you explain how your interpretation fits the timeline I gave in my post on January 27, and the prophecies and statements from Jesus and Paul noted in the same post?

    I think you are referring to this, right?

    So as you can see, when Christ came he didn't "start" the gathering, rather he foretold that after his departure the scattering would be even greater than it was before (i.e. those at Judaea, "shall be led away captive into all nations"), because the two remaining tribes would also be scattered (not just the northern ten tribes) as part of the "days of vengeance" that must be fulfilled. Furthermore, Jesus says in these verses that they will remain in this scattered state "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".  Therefore, it is impossible that Christ, during his mortal ministry, would be the one that would "start" the gathering.
    The apostle Paul also affirmed this same timing of events in his epistle to the Romans, stating that Israel's time for receiving the gospel was essentially postponed until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled:  

    "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."  (Romans 11:25)

    That's only part of it.

    The timeline I was referring from my prior post is this:

    On 1/27/2024 at 11:21 PM, InCognitus said:

    Now I’d like to summarize a few things and explain why my question is still an important one.

    1. All of Israel was scattered, either because of their unrighteousness and rebellion, or for directly rejecting their Messiah:
      • Israel was split into the northern and southern kingdoms, and in approximately 721 BC the northern tribes were carried captive into Assyria and were scattered and lost.
      • In 605 BC and 597 BC, the remaining Israelites were carried captive into Babylon.  They were permitted to return to Jerusalem in approximately 537 BC after Babylon was conquered by the Persians.
      • In 70 AD and 135 AD, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and the remaining tribes of the House of Israel were scattered among all nations. 
      • Jesus and Paul both testified that Israel would remain in this scattered and blinded state until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled (Luke 21:24, Romans 11:25)
    2. During his ministry Jesus was sent only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt 15:24), and never to the Gentiles directly.  Later, after his rejection by the Jews he declared to them that “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt 21:43), and the kingdom of God was left to another people (Daniel 2:44).  After his resurrection, Jesus sent his apostles to the Gentiles.  This marked the beginning of the time of the Gentiles.
    3. Isaiah 11:10-14 prophesies that an individual will show up on the scene and shall stand as an “ensign of the people”, and this signals the point in time where the “Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people” from all over the earth (verse 11), and the ensign for the nations “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth (verse 12).  
    4. Isaiah 49:22-23 has a similar prophecy that reaffirms the meaning of Isaiah 11:10-14: “Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.  And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.” 

    The prophecies and statements from Jesus and Paul that I was referring to are only partially included in what you quoted above.  These are the parts that I mean:

    On 1/27/2024 at 11:21 PM, InCognitus said:

    Above you said that this gathering of Israel started with Christ in his ministry.  That interpretation is impossible because of what Jesus said in Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon where he foretells of the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem.  Speaking of the Jews, he said: 

    And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.  Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”  (Luke 21:20-24)

    So as you can see, when Christ came he didn’t “start” the gathering, rather he foretold that after his departure the scattering would be even greater than it was before (i.e. those at Judaea, “shall be led away captive into all nations”), because the two remaining tribes would also be scattered (not just the northern ten tribes) as part of the “days of vengeance” that must be fulfilled. Furthermore, Jesus says in these verses that they will remain in this scattered state “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”.  Therefore, it is impossible that Christ, during his mortal ministry, would be the one that would “start” the gathering.

    The apostle Paul also affirmed this same timing of events in his epistle to the Romans, stating that Israel’s time for receiving the gospel was essentially postponed until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled:  

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”  (Romans 11:25)

    How could the person described in Isaiah 11:10 be Christ given this timeline of events?  Can you explain how your interpretation fits the timeline and the prophecies and statements from Jesus and Paul as reposted above?

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Blindness in part does not mean that 100% of all the Jewish people rejected him. That is why I
    say that some gathering of Israel started in Christ's ministry and when he sent out the 70 (72 in
    some translations).

    You said "So as you can see, when Christ came, he didn't start the gathering".

    What exactly does "start the gathering" mean to you?

    To be perfectly clear, the “gathering” I am referring to is the gathering described in the verses we have been discussing, when “the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11) and “set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth” (Isaiah 11:12).  And also, “Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land” (Ezekiel 37:21 – with the steps to this gathering as described in my post on December 5).  There are several other verses that may apply, but I’ll keep it simple.  

    It is this event that I’m talking about that has “started” now and this Isaiah 11:10-16 / Ezekiel 15:15-23 event could not have been “started” at the time of Christ for the simple reason that Jesus said there would be even more scattering (a complete scattering of all the tribes) after his departure (Luke 21:20-24). 

    Now that I have made it clear what I mean by the event that has “started”, and what I mean by the “gathering of Israel”, can you now answer my prior questions?  I will restate those questions again here: 

    “Since Israel is being gathered now and has been in the process of being gathered for many years now, how does Christ fit as the individual spoken of in Isaiah 11:10, since the person spoken of in that verse shows up just prior to the gathering of Israel?”

    You answered this previously by saying that the gathering of Israel “started” with Christ’s ministry, which has been shown to be impossible because of what Jesus said in Luke 21:24 (see my January 25 post).  And both Jesus (Luke 21:24) and Paul (Romans 11:25) said that Israel would be in their blinded and scattered state “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”, so this process could not have begun until relatively recently.

    But you also said that Isaiah 11:10 “is a future prophecy about Christ”, and you said, when the gospel began to be taught to the Gentiles, "From that point on, the gathering of both Israelites and Gentiles into his church has been going on."  Can you explain how your interpretation fits the timeline given above, and the prophecies and statements from Jesus and Paul noted above?  

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:
    Quote

    I addressed Romans 15:10-12 in my last post (here).  Can you at least interact with my response to your claim that Paul was referring to Christ in those verses?
    Paul never says the person in Isaiah 11:10 is Christ, and that interpretation doesn't really fit for the reasons described in my prior post.

    Several good commentaries show Paul is writing of Christ, not Joseph Smith.

    https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/romans-15/
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Rom/Rom_015.cfm

    I don’t care what some commentators think Romans 15 means.  Your claim was that Paul himself was referring to Christ in Romans 15:12 (or at least that's what I understood you to be saying), as found in your post from January 25:

    On 1/25/2024 at 9:40 AM, theplains said:

    This is whom (speaking of Christ) Paul wrote about (Romans 15:12 - "And again, Esaias 
    saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; 
    in him shall the Gentiles trust"
    ). 

    Can you quote the part from either of those two commentaries you posted where the commentator says that Paul himself says his quote from Isaiah 11:10 is a reference to Christ?

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    I think I've seen some literature about Ephraim and Manasseh inheriting all the land of America 
    (north, central, and south).

    Isaiah 11:13 says, "The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be 
    cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim
    ".

    How do you understand that?  Who is Ephraim and Judah? Why would Ephraim be jealous of Judah?

    The “jealousy” and “harassment” has to do with the hostilities that existed between the northern kingdom of the 10 tribes (Ephriam) and the southern kingdom (Judah), starting in (roughly) 1 Kings 11:26 through 1 Kings chapter 12 (16-20), where the 10 tribes were about to spilt out and Solomon sought to kill Jeroboam, and then Jeroboam’s break with Rehoboam after Solomon’s death and the 10 northern tribes turn to Jeroboam.  

    Those tensions are mended when the tribes are gathered and assembled, and more so when they are returned to their own lands as described in Isaiah 11:10-16 and Ezekiel 37:15-23.

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    That prophet was Ezekiel.  

    "And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes" (37:20). 

    "Thou" and "thine" is Ezekiel.  "Their eyes" is a reference to those in Ezekiel's presence.

    https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/ezekiel-37/ has some good explanation.

    The commentary you referenced explains this as a future fulfillment:  

    "b. Make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand: Generally, the meaning was plain. When God ultimately restored the tribes of Israel, He would restore them all. That which was previously divided in the days of Rehoboam (1 Kings 12-14) would be restored as one."     

    Ezekiel taking the two writing tablets together in his hand was a type of the future fulfillment of the same thing taking place.  

    On 2/7/2024 at 7:27 PM, theplains said:

    Do you have the same interpretation for Ezekiel 39:2,4?

    Yes.

  2. On 2/7/2024 at 9:57 AM, theplains said:

    Why do you believe the brothers and sisters of the Heavenly Father of our Earth (who were
    supposedly all siblings of their own Heavenly Father born on some other world and who all
    became Gods and created their own worlds) cannot be greater than he?

    How am I supposed to answer a contrived hypothetical question that imposes beliefs upon me that I do not agree with?  

    I already explained that our God and Father is the most intelligent of “all”, and there is no getting around that.

    On 2/7/2024 at 9:57 AM, theplains said:

    Here's another example. Let's suppose your father (living as a mortal on some world) has five
    sons (named InCognitus, John, Paul, Jesse, and Robert).  You and your four other brothers become
    Gods and the Heavenly Fathers of future worlds that you will create.  Can any of your four other
    brothers be greater Gods than you?

    Since we will all be eternally subject to our God and Father and we will be participating in his work and his glory, then whether one of us is the “greatest” in his kingdom is meaningless.  

  3. 50 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

    What happened back when meetings were 3 hours long on Sundays? Were Sundays services also shortened to 1 hour on Easter and Christmas?

    Easter and Christmas are the two holiest times in the Catholic liturgical calendar -- they are holy days of obligation, which means you must attend mass.

    Our meeting is shortened to one hour so we can go to mass.

  4. 2 hours ago, webbles said:

    In a letter from the First Presidency, from now on Easter Sunday will only be 1 hour and the Sunday nearest Christmas (decided by the Stake Presidency) will only be 1 hour.

    https://www.deseret.com/2024/2/3/24059921/church-lds-meeting-schedule-holidays

    That makes sense to just establish a blanket policy on that instead of sending out official communications that say the same thing twice a year.

  5. On 1/31/2024 at 1:55 PM, theplains said:
    On 1/31/2024 at 11:50 AM, InCognitus said:

    It is more in line with what the book of Abraham teaches (and other scriptures) to understand that Joseph Smith was teaching that God the Father is the greatest of all spirits and always has been

    In the context of what I understand of LDS theology, this is only applicable to the realm of 
    God the Father of our Earth.  How he compares in greatness with all the current and future
    Heavenly Fathers or Mothers of other realms is unknown. 

    Actually, he says he only gives us an account of this earth, but he also tells us, "worlds without number have I created" (Moses 1:33).  

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:55 PM, theplains said:

    Who knows?  Maybe the female and male spirit children of Heavenly Father's Father went
    on to become even greater than their own spirit brother (currently the Heavenly Father of
    our Earth).

    That's impossible, because God's creations and his "work" and his "glory" increase eternally.  Nobody can catch up to that.

  6. On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Isaiah 10:2-4 says, "And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom 
    and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear 
    of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD. He shall not judge by what 
    his eyes see, or decide disputes by what his ears hear, but with righteousness he shall 
    judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the 
    earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
    Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins
    ".

    Who do you believe that individual is?

    This is answered in Doctrine and Covenants 113:1–2:

    Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?   Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Let's have a look at verse 10 again.

    "In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall 
    the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious".

    Who do you believe that individual is?

    Do you think my answer to that question will change simply because you emphasize the words “who”, “him”, and “his” in this and the other verses in the chapter?  And you do realize that there’s a new paragraph beginning with verse 10 that introduces a new subject matter there, right?  So whoever the “him” is in the preceding paragraphs may have no bearing on the new subject whatsoever. 

    And the new paragraph isn’t just a feature of the translation, it’s in the Hebrew scrolls as well.  Look at Isaiah 11:10 in the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it is the start of a completely new paragraph (and keep in mind that Hebrew reads from right to left instead of from left to right):

    image.jpeg.24837f9cf46fecaf259205fb28437055.jpeg

    As for who that is, my answer is the same as it was from my post on December 15, and as answered in Doctrine and Covenants 113:3–6:

    What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?  Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.  What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?  Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.”

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Verse 12 says, "He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of 
    Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth
    ".

    Who do you believe that individual is?

    Same as answered above.  I will add that it is the Lord doing this (raising the standard, signal, or ensign – all the same word) through his servant (the root of Jesse), as a “servant in the hands of Christ”.  The servant is called of God and stands as a witness of him, and what the Lord does through him is the signal that begins the full gathering of Israel in the latter days.

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    The Ephraim of Jeremiah 31:9 is not Ephraim the individual nor Ephraim the tribe.  It is 
    representative of all ten tribes, where Ephraim’s tribe was predominant.

    I don’t think the northern ten tribes (as a group) were ever designated as the “firstborn” of Israel.  Furthermore, the kingdom of the ten tribes was called Ephraim only because their first king Jeroboam was of that tribe (1 Kings 11:26).  

    The “firstborn” designation goes to Joseph through Ephraim. See Genesis 48:17-20 (where Jacob “set Ephraim before Manasseh”), and also as it says in 1 Chronicles 5:1-2:  

    Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph’s: )

    In Isaiah 49:3-6 (the verse I had quoted that you are responding to), it is discussing the Lord’s “servant” that is to “raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel”.  That is Ephraim’s role, as designated by the blessing given to him in Deuteronomy 33:13-17, although as I mentioned others could also participate in that role.  And in Jeremiah 31, the Lord is also talking about recovering the “remnant of Israel” from the “north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth” (v 7-8).  Ephraim, as a people, has that same role.  Ephraim is the Lord’s “firstborn”.

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Israel, as individuals was being gathered into the church of Christ in the days of His ministry.  
    We can refer to them (including the Gentiles) as the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). But 
    Israel as a whole would be in a blinded and scattered state as you mentioned.

    You acknowledge the further scattering of Israel (as prophesied by Jesus) after New Testament times, and also acknowledge that the gathering event initiated in Isaiah 11:10 could not have taken place during Christ’s three year ministry, but you never have answered my question.  This was my original question and it still stands:

    “Since Israel is being gathered now and has been in the process of being gathered for many years now, how does Christ fit as the individual spoken of in Isaiah 11:10, since the person spoken of in that verse shows up just prior to the gathering of Israel?”

    Can you explain how Christ could be the person described in Isaiah 11:10?  Has Christ appeared to someone to start the gathering of Israel?  (Actually, he did appear to Joseph Smith a few times. I think the servant is likely Joseph Smith.)   Or how else could that person in Isaiah 11:10 be Christ?   Can you explain how your interpretation fits the timeline I gave in my post on January 27, and the prophecies and statements from Jesus and Paul noted in the same post?  

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Regarding Paul’s teaching in Romans 15:10-12

    And again it is said, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."  And again, "Praise the Lord, all 
    you Gentiles, and let all the peoples extol him."  And again Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse will 
    come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope."

    Looks like a reference to Isaiah 11.  Who do you believe this individual is?

    I addressed Romans 15:10-12 in my last post (here).  Can you at least interact with my response to your claim that Paul was referring to Christ in those verses?

    As for who this person is, it’s the same as I said on December 15 in response to the question on Isaiah 11:10, and from Doctrine and Covenants 113:5–6:

    What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?   Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.”

    Paul never says the person in Isaiah 11:10 is Christ, and that interpretation doesn’t really fit for the reasons described in my prior post.

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    You asked how does gathering work in my view.  I think I did not reply in that one.

    I view the gathering in two ways: a) spiritually, both Jew and Gentile. Geography is not 
    relevant.  b) a land inheritance for the Jew in the land of Israel in the future.  By Jew, 
    I mean the Israelites. I could provide many verses from the Old Testament about this (point b) 
    but none of them would include Canada, the United States, or Mexico.

    Regarding your point “a”, I don’t consider literal Jews being gathered into the church of Jesus Christ as “spiritual” Israel (I explained this in my post on December 7).  They are literally Israel and are literally being gathered.  They just haven’t all returned to their own soil (wherever that may be) as of yet.  

    As for your point “b”, in my post on December 12 I already did provide several verses from the Old Testament that explain how your original idea that they would return to "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament” doesn’t work (for several reasons).  

    As for whether or not those lands could include Canada, the United States, or Mexico, you can definitely rule out Canada :)

    But I don’t know how you can say for certainty whether or not those lands would be excluded, especially given how I answered this at the end of my post on December 7:

    On 12/7/2023 at 9:43 PM, InCognitus said:

    Israel will inherit the lands promised to them, some of them as it is described in Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33.  Some of those lands go beyond what is described during the Biblical time when there was a northern and southern kingdom.

    Jacob's blessing to his son, Joseph (Genesis 49:22-26, Deuteronomy 33:13-17), has an interesting promise.  Verse 26 of Genesis 49 reads, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren." 

    The Rashi (Jewish Rabbi) commentary on this verse has this to say:

    "עד תאות גבעות עולם EVEN TO THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EVERLASTING HILLS — Because my blessings have prevailed, extending to the very ends of the bounds of the everlasting hills, for He gave me a blessing that bursts all bounds, one that has no limits, that reaches even unto the four corners of the world, as it is stated, (Genesis 28:14) '[God said to Jacob] and thou shalt spread abroad to the West and to the East [and to the North and to the South]', an unqualified promise that was made neither to Abraham nor to Isaac. For to Abraham He said, (Genesis 13:14) “Lift up thine eyes and look northwards etc. … for all the land which thou seest to thee will I give it”, and He showed him only the Land of Israel. To Isaac He said, (Genesis 26:3) “for unto thee and unto thy seed will I give all these lands, and I will establish the oath [which I swore unto Abraham thy father]”. It is to this that Isaiah alludes when he said, (Isaiah 58:14) “And I will feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father” (Shabbat 118b), and he did not say, “with the heritage promised to Abraham”."

    So, the land areas that Israel inherits surpasses what they were allowed to have during the land assignments by Joshua.  But ultimately they become "one nation" under God and his Christ.

    The inheritance given to Joseph and his sons is quite extensive.

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    Ezekiel 37:22 says, "And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. 
    And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no 
    longer divided into two kingdoms
    ".

    Does "make them one nation" mean making the Book of Mormon and the Bible into one book to 
    you?

    I already answered this question in my post on November 24:

    “[T]he two wooden writing tablets represent the two nations, and bringing the two wooden writing tablets together again represents them becoming one again.  The nations of "Joseph, the leaf of Ephriaim and all his associates of Israel" were scattered throughout the world, and this is a prophetic symbol of the beginning of their gathering.”

    I also said:  "Ezekiel states that the two wooden writing tablets come together in the hand of a prophet just as the Lord begins the gathering again: ‘These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations’.   Has Israel started gathering?  If so, then the two writing tablets have come together. “

    On 1/31/2024 at 1:20 PM, theplains said:

    What does the phrase "on the mountains of Israel" mean to you in that verse?

    My response to you on December 7 (part of which I just quoted above) dealt with this question.  The "mountains of Israel" would be all the lands that the tribes would inherit, wherever they may be.

  7. 2 hours ago, theplains said:

    Similar to what I replied to Incognitus, the LDS version of God (Heavenly Father) always 
    was in the sense of always being an eternal being (who always was - gnolaum; Abraham 3:18). 
    This is similar to yourself.  Both you and the being who would eventually progress into 
    becoming the God of our Earth were on the same level at some time in eternity past - gnolaum, 
    but not Gods.

    Some have speculated that Joseph Smith was referring to an infinite regression of Gods, but others see what Joseph Smith taught differently.  It is more in line with what the book of Abraham teaches (and other scriptures) to understand that Joseph Smith was teaching that God the Father is the greatest of all spirits and always has been, but others have become like him through his assistance.

  8. On 1/24/2024 at 2:30 PM, bluebell said:

    You'd want a new one anyway because it's completely new this year since they made the change to everyone using the same one regardless of class/age/purpose.

    You had me going for a minute, I was wondering if there was an age specific version of Preach My Gospel that I had missed out on.  (i.e. Preach My Gospel for 8 to 10 years old?)

  9. 31 minutes ago, webbles said:

    I don't think you should include this information if you just want to focus on the geography of the promised land.  The AI will be taking into account whether a West Asian tribe of that time period can reach this isthmus and that will rule out locations.  Since the Book of Mormon text states that Nephi built the ship "after the manner which the Lord had shown unto [him]", the Lehites were using technology that the AI wouldn't be aware of.

    Not to mention using the Liahona for navigation, that would drive the AI crazy.

  10. 2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

    I was banned for a few weeks back in the day. This place is a great place because the posters are able to handle those that think differently. It's okay to be unhappy with being PIMO, they won't judge you. It's just when they get treated with disrespect.

    On this board those like us, have a chance to converse with believers on the board and air our problems with the church and not lose family and friends by airing them out with them. That's what is so golden about this board! I've come to feel as if the members on this board know me better than my own family sometimes! So if you ever want to stay I hope you can see the light at the end of the tunnel soon! :) 

    If only I could upvote your post ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 👍

  11. On 1/25/2024 at 9:40 AM, theplains said:

    When I read the context of Doctrine and Covenants 101:28-31, I see that the phrase "his 
    rest shall be glorious" applying to individuals.

    But when I read the context of Isaiah 11, the "his" in "his rest shall be glorious" is a
    reference to Christ. The entire chapter is not speaking about many individuals, but 
    rather one key figure.

    Isaiah 11:10 is about one key figure, and that key figure receives a glorious “rest”, which is in Christ, as in “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)

    Both Doctrine and Covenants 101:28-31 and Isaiah 11:10 are speaking about individuals who receive rest in Christ.

    On 1/25/2024 at 9:40 AM, theplains said:

    I explained some of my answer above.  Isaiah 11 is a future prophecy about Christ.  
    In his ministry, the gathering of Israel started. Afterwards, the gathering of the 
    Gentiles began (I believe it began with Peter and Cornelius).  From that point on, 
    the gathering of both Israelites and Gentiles into his church has been going on.

    You are totally missing the point of the timing in the context of Isaiah 11:10-14.  When the person shows up as described in verse 10, what immediately follows is important, because the person stands as “ensign” to the people and the gathering of Israel begins right after that event:  

    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.  And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.  The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.”  (Isaiah 11:11–13)

    Above you said that this gathering of Israel started with Christ in his ministry.  That interpretation is impossible because of what Jesus said in Luke’s account of Christ’s sermon where he foretells of the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem.  Speaking of the Jews, he said: 

    And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.  Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”  (Luke 21:20-24)

    So as you can see, when Christ came he didn’t “start” the gathering, rather he foretold that after his departure the scattering would be even greater than it was before (i.e. those at Judaea, “shall be led away captive into all nations”), because the two remaining tribes would also be scattered (not just the northern ten tribes) as part of the “days of vengeance” that must be fulfilled. Furthermore, Jesus says in these verses that they will remain in this scattered state “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”.  Therefore, it is impossible that Christ, during his mortal ministry, would be the one that would “start” the gathering.

    The apostle Paul also affirmed this same timing of events in his epistle to the Romans, stating that Israel’s time for receiving the gospel was essentially postponed until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled:  

    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”  (Romans 11:25)

    Regarding Romans 15:12 where Paul quotes from Isaiah 11:10, your reasoning that Paul is referring to Christ in that verse also doesn’t make sense within the context.  In verse 8 of that chapter, Paul made it clear that Christ’s mission was to the “circumcision”, which was Paul’s way of designating the Jews.  Paul is saying that Jesus ministered to the Jews so that he could confirm God’s promises to the “fathers” (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).  Paul’s intent here and in the next few verses is to explain that even though Christ’s mission was to the House of Israel, the scriptures also foretold that the time would come when the Gentiles would have the gospel preached to them as well. 

    As Paul continues in Romans 15, he quotes from Psalms 18:49 or 2 Samuel 22:50 (verse 9, “For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name”), Deuteronomy 32:43 (verse 10, “Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people”), Psalm 117:1 (verse 11, “Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people”), and finally he quotes Isaiah 11:10 (verse 12).  And in quoting all of these verses (including Isaiah 11:10) he does not identify Christ as the subject.  Rather, he simply quotes them to establish that the Gentiles have a place in God’s plan and have a right to rejoice in the grace of God.  

    You quoted from Luke 2:32 where Simeon declared, upon seeing the Christ child, that he had seen the Lord’s “salvation” which he had prepared before the face of all people, as “a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel”.  You presume (incorrectly) that this lends support to your interpretation of Isaiah 11:10. The verses in Isaiah 11:10-14 are about setting up an ensign to the nations that signals the gathering of Israel, and there is no mention of giving “light” to the Gentiles in that context.  But there are many other prophecies about the Gentiles benefiting from the “light” that comes through Christ and his servants and his people, but these are all in a totally different set of circumstances than what is being discussed in Isaiah 11:10.

    Obviously, Jesus is truly the “light of the world” (John 8:12), but others are described as providing light as well (i.e. Jesus taught us, “Ye are the light of the world…”, Matthew 5:14).  And Isaiah, speaking of Israel says “the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of they rising” (Isaiah 60:3).  

    Also, in chapter 49, Isaiah quotes the Lord as saying: “Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified… And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.  And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”  (Isaiah 49:3-6)

    The “servant” of the Lord in this context can have many applications.  It may be Christ.  It may be Isaiah himself.  It may be Israel as a people (as verse 3 says).  It may be Ephraim (the Lord’s firstborn – Jeremiah 31:9).  Or it may be any other servant that the Lord may send out (including Joseph Smith).  And all of these may be correct.

    The fact that this could be applied to any of the Lord’s servants is born out by the fact that Paul and Barnabas considered these verses to be applicable to them:   

    Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.  For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.”  (Acts 13:46–47)

    As you can see, appealing to Luke 2:32 to try to claim that Isaiah 11:10 is speaking about Jesus doesn’t really work.  There is no connection between the two passages, and the prophecies about those who are a light unto the Gentiles are applicable to many individuals, and not only Jesus.

    Now I’d like to summarize a few things and explain why my question is still an important one.

    1. All of Israel was scattered, either because of their unrighteousness and rebellion, or for directly rejecting their Messiah:
      • Israel was split into the northern and southern kingdoms, and in approximately 721 BC the northern tribes were carried captive into Assyria and were scattered and lost.
      • In 605 BC and 597 BC, the remaining Israelites were carried captive into Babylon.  They were permitted to return to Jerusalem in approximately 537 BC after Babylon was conquered by the Persians.
      • In 70 AD and 135 AD, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and the remaining tribes of the House of Israel were scattered among all nations. 
      • Jesus and Paul both testified that Israel would remain in this scattered and blinded state until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled (Luke 21:24, Romans 11:25)
    2. During his ministry Jesus was sent only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt 15:24), and never to the Gentiles directly.  Later, after his rejection by the Jews he declared to them that “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matt 21:43), and the kingdom of God was left to another people (Daniel 2:44).  After his resurrection, Jesus sent his apostles to the Gentiles.  This marked the beginning of the time of the Gentiles.
    3. Isaiah 11:10-14 prophesies that an individual will show up on the scene and shall stand as an “ensign of the people”, and this signals the point in time where the “Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people” from all over the earth (verse 11), and the ensign for the nations “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth (verse 12).  
    4. Isaiah 49:22-23 has a similar prophecy that reaffirms the meaning of Isaiah 11:10-14: “Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.  And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.” 

    This brings me back to the question I asked, which I will restate here: “Since Israel is being gathered now and has been in the process of being gathered for many years now, how does Christ fit as the individual spoken of in Isaiah 11:10, since the person spoken of in that verse shows up just prior to the gathering of Israel?”

    You answered this by saying that the gathering of Israel “started” with Christ’s ministry, which has been shown to be impossible because of what Jesus said in Luke 21:24 (quoted above).  And both Jesus (Luke 21:24) and Paul (Romans 11:25) said that Israel would be in their blinded and scattered state “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”, so this process could not have begun until relatively recently.

    But you also said that Isaiah 11:10 “is a future prophecy about Christ”, and you said, when the gospel began to be taught to the Gentiles, "From that point on, the gathering of both Israelites and Gentiles into his church has been going on."  Can you explain how your interpretation fits the timeline given above, and the prophecies and statements from Jesus and Paul noted above?  

    On 1/25/2024 at 9:40 AM, theplains said:

    About the two writing tablets, I think we already discussed this. Ezekiel's two 
    sticks is about two nations (the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah) 
    eventually becoming one nation.

    I'll quote the key verses again.

    "And the sticks [not books] whereon thou writest [which Ezekiel wrote on, not on
    the Book of Mormon or the Bible as they did not even exist] shall be in thine hand
    before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take
    the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will
    gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land
    [the land of Israel,
    not the United States].  And I will make them one nation [not the Book of Mormon +
    the Bible] in the land upon the mountains of Israel [not in the land of America]; and
    one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations
    [not two
    books], neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms [not two books but rather
    the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah] any more at all". 

    The issue is not of what Ezekiel literally did (writing on tablets and putting them together - using the New English Bible translation of the verse) but what the writing tables coming together represented (the records of the two nations) and that this would immediately precede the gathering of Israel:  "Thus I shall make them one tablet, and they shall be one in my hand. The leaves on which you write shall be visible in your hand for all to see".  And, it is stated as a prophecy of what will happen to signal the beginning of the gathering of Israel (i.e. "I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations").  

    As for what is "their own land", we did already discuss that (here) where you assumed that they would be returning to "the land of their inheritance, like it was at their zenith in the Old Testament."  And, I already explained why that is not the case.

  12. On 1/24/2024 at 10:51 AM, marineland said:

    I read that link about Book of Mormon Central.  One way to summarize it very briefly is to say
    omission does not equal non-existence.  Most of it is speculation and conjecture.  That's ok
    to do but I wouldn't advertise it as the truth.

    It's based on internal evidence in the text, and it's good evidence

    On 1/24/2024 at 10:51 AM, marineland said:

    Regarding 3 Nephi 5:20 (I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi), descendant refers to
    Mormon 1:5; 8:13.

    "And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father’s name was Mormon) I remembered 
    the things which Ammaron commanded me
    ".

    "Behold, I make an end of speaking concerning this people. I am the son of Mormon, and my father 
    was a descendant of Nephi
    ".

    Why wouldn't the two Mormons (father and son) also classify themselves as pure descendants of
    Nephi?

    For the same reason anyone might (or might not) say such a thing in casual conversation.  They also likely knew it was already a matter of record, since they were the ones keeping the plates.

  13. 11 minutes ago, marineland said:

    The way I read that quote is the 3 days of darkness would be given to the Gentiles who inhabit
    the isles of the sea plus (more especially) those of all the tribes of Israel.

    I realize you read it that way, but that's not how it should be read in context (as explained before).

    11 minutes ago, marineland said:

    By lands, do you mean all the lands encompassing North, Central, and South America?  Is there
    anything in the Book of Mormon which would indicate those who left Jerusalem and settled in 
    America (as taught), and their population grew, met other people who did not originate or descend
    from Israel?

    They settled in the "Americas" or "the American Continent" somewhere, and they were scattered and mixed with the people that were already on the continent. 

    The Book of Mormon makes a big deal about those who are "pure" descendants of Lehi (3 Nephi 5:20) or Nephi (3 Nephi book header), which seems like an odd thing to do if everyone came over on the boat with Lehi.  And the text mentions others already in the land (some by name, like the Jaredites) and it's also evident based on the numbers of people involved that there were others already on the continent as well.

    For more information, see:  Book of Mormon Central / KnoWhys - Did “Others” Influence Book of Mormon Peoples? 

  14. 2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

     

    “6. Plural marriage

    The following information is provided to help you address questions class members may have about the practice of plural marriage. This topic should not be the focus of the lesson.”

    That looks like what i was referring to. Not bad memory for being about 25 years ago. 

    So your memory is actually horrible.  You took something positive from the manual, which included good resources for discussion on polygamy and put a negative spin on it.  

  15. 1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

    are you saying there were no dc 132 lessons taught in 2021? Anywhere in the church? What makes you so sure?

    [sarcasm mode on]:  No, I'm just saying you missed another opportunity to criticize the church for purposely scheduling the Section 132 lesson on a second Sunday to ensure that polygamy wouldn't be discussed in a classroom setting. [sarcasm mode off] *

    In our ward we just discussed section 132 and polygamy in Elder's quorum that Sunday :).

    * I have a key on my keyboard to enable sarcasm mode, but it never shows up that way when I'm typing it in a post for some reason.

  16. 11 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

    My dad was bemused by my younger self writing things misspelled yet perfectly understandable if you say it out loud.

    This reminds me of a poem titled, "An Owed to the Spelling Checker", by Jerrold H. Zar.  I won't quote the entire poem, but the first part goes like this:

    I have a spelling checker.
    It came with my PC.
    It plane lee marks four my revue
    Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

    Eye ran this poem threw it,
    Your sure reel glad two no.
    Its vary polished in it's weigh,
    My checker tolled me sew.

  17. On 1/19/2024 at 8:57 AM, theplains said:

    Let's put a few verses side by side:

    "And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in 
    the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious
    " (Doctrine 
    and Covenants 101:31)

    "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the 
    people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious
    " (Isaiah 11:10)

    Who is referenced in "his rest shall be glorious" in both verses?

    I explained that already in the post where I first brought up Doctrine and Covenants 101:31 (here).  The Doctrine and Covenants verse is talking about the glorious “’rest’ that will come to righteous individuals during the Millennium”, and the Isaiah 11:10 verse is talking about a specific individual that will have a glorious rest (in Christ). 

    On 1/19/2024 at 8:57 AM, theplains said:

    Do you believe Jesus and Heavenly Father became Gods?

    There are various ways to define the word “God”.  Some define God as anything that is eternal.  Of course we believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ have existed eternally. 

    But “God” is also defined as the being who is the creator of worlds and has individuals and creations that are subject to him.  In our beliefs, God has created “worlds without number” (Moses 1:33).  And I think it is in this sense that God the Father and Jesus Christ “became Gods” to us, because they created our world and we became subject to them and reliant upon them.  

    Do you believe God has been a creator of worlds eternally?  Or do you believe this earth is the first time God ever created anything (i.e. he’s a beginner at the whole creator role)?

    There is one question I asked you in my last post that relates to Isaiah 11 that you didn't answer.  I said:

    On 1/9/2024 at 9:48 PM, InCognitus said:

    You forget that the whole reason this was brought up is because this was a sign that would begin the gathering of Israel, just exactly like the two writing tablets coming together in the hand of the prophet that would signal the beginning of the gathering of Israel, as spoken about by Ezekiel.  Because this is when the Lord shall "set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people".  Israel is being gathered now, and has been in the process of being gathered for many years now.  How exactly does Christ fit that timing?

    So I ask again:  Since Israel is being gathered now and has been in the process of being gathered for many years now, how does Christ fit as the individual spoken of in Isaiah 11:10, since the person spoken of in that verse shows up just prior to the gathering of Israel?

  18. On 1/15/2024 at 2:19 PM, marineland said:

    I saw that.  You mentioned that 1 Nephi 19:10 implies some of the house of Israel, not 
    all.

    Saying "isles of the sea" to someone in Israel would not mean that Cyprus is a "far off 
    land". Neither would Greenland be a "far off land" to someone living in Canada or Iceland.

    I completely disagree.  What was a “far off land” in New Testament times is different than we think of distances today.  For example, Jesus told the apostle Paul, while he was in Jerusalem, to “Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles” (Acts 22:21).  Paul went to some of those places that were “far away” compared to Jerusalem (including Cyprus).

    On 1/15/2024 at 2:19 PM, marineland said:

    That's the tricky part.  If "isles of the sea" means land masses adjacent to water, 
    then the 3 days of darkness would have basically affected most areas of the world 
    (Russia and Assyria too, especially Israel - but there we know it was only 3 hours 
    of darkness and no massive destructions like is mentioned to have occurred in the 
    Book of Mormon.

    According to the Bible Hub definition, the Hebrews considered the “isles of the sea” to “denote distant regions beyond the sea”.   So it would be those areas that would normally require travel by sea in order to arrive at those locations.  Consequently, if that is an accurate understanding of the phrase, Russia and Assyria wouldn’t really qualify in that respect, since there are no sea routes from Israel to get those places.

    On 1/15/2024 at 2:19 PM, marineland said:

    That would put the 3 days of darkness all around the world since they all in some way 
    satisfy what you mentioned.

    Not really, the context tells us that.  Back on this post (here), I mentioned that “We don't have the full context for the prophecy of Zenos which was quoted by Nephi, but Nephi was recognizing the parts of the prophecy that he knew applied to his people.”  

    We can discern this from the context because in that chapter Nephi described various signs that would be given to some parts of the tribes of Israel, aside from those that applied to his people.  Nephi begins by alluding to (but not quoting) prophecies given by Zenos as follows:

    And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.”  (1 Nephi 19:10)

    But then in the next verse, Nephi appears to quote Zenos directly:

    For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall visit all the house of Israel at that day, (1) some with his voice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and (2) others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up.”  (1 Nephi 19:11)

    Note that the prophet Zenos says “all” the house of Israel shall be visited (in some way) at that day.  And then he gives at least two distinct ways that will happen:  The righteous will be visited with his voice, and others will have other things happen to them.  And those additional signs may not be all together for all areas as is evident from his next statement:

    And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.” (1 Nephi 19:12)

    So the quaking of the earth is broken out (pun intended) separately.  This was even fulfilled to some degree at Jerusalem, as recorded by Matthew:

    Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent…  Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” (Matthew 27:50-51, 54)

    Then Nephi continues to quote Zenos, describing what would happen to those at Jerusalem:

    And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.  And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.”  (1 Nephi 19:13-14)

    In Matthew 23:34-24:2, Jesus also foretold of these events, telling those at Jerusalem that “your house is left unto you desolate”, and that the temple would be completely destroyed, and “all these things shall come upon this generation”.

    So as you can see, the signs and events that would occur among the tribes of Israel would vary, although all of them would receive some kind of sign.  Therefore, it is incorrect to assume that they all would see the three days of darkness that came upon the Nephite people, although it's quite possible that other areas experienced similar events.

    On 1/15/2024 at 2:19 PM, marineland said:

    In the context of the verses we've been discussing (2 Nephi 10:9,11), what nations in the 
    Americas are you referring to when you mention freedom of captivity from the nations of 
    their mother lands?

    They are the nations that occupy the lands that were previously inhabited by the Book of Mormon people.

  19. 2 hours ago, marineland said:

    I don't believe the house of Israel only refers to descendants of Lehi (of Manasseh), 
    Ishmael (of Ephraim?), Zoram (of Manasseh?), and Mulek (of Judah).

    I don't believe it only refers to these people as well.  

    2 hours ago, marineland said:

    Let me insert into 1 Nephi 19:10 what I believe.

    "... concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death 
    unto those
    [the entire house of Israel + Gentiles] who should inhabit [all, not some] 
    the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel 
    [but more especially given unto those of the twelve tribes of Israel; which is the 
    house of Israel].

    You expressed this same view earlier in the thread.  And I already explained my view here

    Do you believe that everywhere that the House of Israel has been scattered could be called an "isle of the sea"?  By what you say above, it sounds like it.  Would Russia and Assyria be considered "an isle of the sea" using the biblical usage of the phrase?  The difference between what I think you are saying and what I'm saying is that the house of Israel has been scattered, and only some of those that have been scattered are on "isles of the sea", at least by the definition of the term that I provided in my prior post here, which is:  

    "Isles of the sea" is a phrase in the Hebrew scriptures that indicates far off lands, or coasts and continents, habitable spots (see verses like Genesis 10:5, Isaiah 11:11 and 24:15)."  

    This Bible Hub definition says the following:  

    "The plural of this word, usually translated islands, was employed by the Hebrews to denote distant regions beyond the sea, whether coasts or islands; and especially the islands and maritime countries of the west, which had become indistinctly known to the Hebrews, through the voyages of the Phoenicians, Isaiah 24:15 40:15 42:4,10,12 Psalm 72:10. In Ezekiel 27:15, the East Indian Archipelago would seem to be intended."

    I really don't think all the House of Israel could be considered to be on the "isles of the sea" by the definition given above.

    2 hours ago, marineland said:

    Regarding verse 11.

    "And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no 
    kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles"
    .

    What is this land a reference to and who are the Gentiles?  Why would having a
    king (President for the United States or Prime Minister for Canada) mean it
    would not be a land of liberty?

    Did you not read in my prior post where I said there are two distinct contexts for the usage of the word "kings" in those two verses?  If you read it, then why are you ignoring what I said?

    The President of the United States is a leader from within the nations on the American continent, and does not fit the definition of "king" as given in the context of verse 11, which had to do with having liberty (and thus freedom from captivity) from the nations of their mother lands.  They are independent countries. 

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