EllenMaksoud

During a Gospel Principle (or is Gospel Doctrine?) ... anyway, during the "Baby Mormon" Sunday School session, a recent convert asked this question, "What religion is most similar to ours?"  I almost bit a hole in my bottom lip keeping my mouth shut because I knew that my answer might be seen as "negative" and, like everyone else, I'm trying to help them nurture their newfound faith.  However, I don't think that my answer is negative at all; and it is ISLAM.

 

Here are the similarities as I see them (and by the way, I'm really hoping that Ellen will correct the numerous factual and logical errors in my thinking):

 

1)  Both religions were founded by prophets who dictated scripture (Quran-D&C) through revelation.

 

2)  Both religions accept the truth of the Bible (OT & NT) but believe that it is incomplete and has been misinterpreted/translated.

 

3)  Early adherents of both religions were persecuted and eventually sought sanctuary by migrating to their own versions of Zion.

 

4)  Both religions impose specific dietary restrictions and issue prescribed clothing.

 

5)  Both religions deny the Holy Trinity, although both religions acknowledge the existence and significance of three separate personages -- God, Jesus and the Holy Spirt (the archangel Gabriel for Muslims).

 

6)  Both religions posit different degrees of heaven in which people will reside according to their good works, and with the company of equally righteous family members.

 

Now, I do understand that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between the two religions; two of the biggest being that Muslims don't accept the resurrection and atonement of Christ and Muhammed was the last of the Islamic prophets, while we have a continuing line of prophets.

 

However, on a practical and lived basis, I think we are most similar to our Muslim brothers and sisters.  And while I recognize that people have used this comparison in the past to denigrate one (or both) groups, I see no shame in being compared to another group of devout religious believers who have love and service at the center of their theology.

 

Of course, there is no right answer here, so I'm curious as to which religion you think we are closest to?

Here is the conclusion of my comments about this thread. To be sure, I am not expert on Islam, though I know how those around me lived it. Mashallah, thank you for your kind statement to me.

1. Yes, I believe that Muhammad (Peace be unto him) was a prophet. It was because of his example that I was willing to listen to Joseph Smith.
2. Both religions do accept the truth of the Bible (The Book as they call it), but they do not accept the New Testament. Their acceptance of Jesus the Christ is in my mind irrational and not complete. I think a lot was lost in Islam when the Ottomans spread Islam, and somehow came to the conclusion that it was a good idea to cut off Christians and Jews from Jerusalem. That triggered the Crusades, and it was a disaster for Islam. Though the Moors would occupy Southern Spain until around 1200 AD. In the end, Islam self-destructed owing to internal strife.
3. Accepted.
4. Accepted with the following caveats. I think a lot of the Islamic clothing, especially for women originated due to the harsh climactic conditions, and later became religious dogma. Muslim men blame women for their own lust, and even in Western culture a certain amount of that still goes on. I remember hearing boys as I grew up saying “she dresses that way because she wants it”.
5. Accepted.
6. Accepted.

With Modern expressions of Islam, I am sad because everywhere we look Muslims are killing each other. I have read some scholars who say that Colonialism destroyed Middle Eastern culture, though that is not the case today and Muslims still seem bent on blaming others for their issues.

In the OT, in Genesis 16 there is a discussion of Hagar and how her descendants seem to be cursed even to this day. This makes me really sad, and I would like to argue with God about it, though I know that he would win. We cannot know God, though perhaps someday we will be his friends. I would be content to scrub toilets in his house.

The expression of modern Islam is deeply flawed, though we should not forget that it was Muhammad that wrote the Constitution of Medina, where for the first time in recorded human history women’s rights were documented.

During a Gospel Principle (or is Gospel Doctrine?) ... anyway, during the "Baby Mormon" Sunday School session, a recent convert asked this question, "What religion is most similar to ours?"  I almost bit a hole in my bottom lip keeping my mouth shut because I knew that my answer might be seen as "negative" and, like everyone else, I'm trying to help them nurture their newfound faith.  However, I don't think that my answer is negative at all; and it is ISLAM.

 

Here are the similarities as I see them (and by the way, I'm really hoping that Ellen will correct the numerous factual and logical errors in my thinking):

 

1)  Both religions were founded by prophets who dictated scripture (Quran-D&C) through revelation.

 

2)  Both religions accept the truth of the Bible (OT & NT) but believe that it is incomplete and has been misinterpreted/translated.

 

3)  Early adherents of both religions were persecuted and eventually sought sanctuary by migrating to their own versions of Zion.

 

4)  Both religions impose specific dietary restrictions and issue prescribed clothing.

 

5)  Both religions deny the Holy Trinity, although both religions acknowledge the existence and significance of three separate personages -- God, Jesus and the Holy Spirt (the archangel Gabriel for Muslims).

 

6)  Both religions posit different degrees of heaven in which people will reside according to their good works, and with the company of equally righteous family members.

 

Now, I do understand that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between the two religions; two of the biggest being that Muslims don't accept the resurrection and atonement of Christ and Muhammed was the last of the Islamic prophets, while we have a continuing line of prophets.

 

However, on a practical and lived basis, I think we are most similar to our Muslim brothers and sisters.  And while I recognize that people have used this comparison in the past to denigrate one (or both) groups, I see no shame in being compared to another group of devout religious believers who have love and service at the center of their theology.

 

Of course, there is no right answer here, so I'm curious as to which religion you think we are closest to?

First, most Americans are profoundly ignorant of other cultures and religions. They actually do not know that much about their own beliefs and are happy to be that way. Coming out of Islam myself, I do not have bad things to say about it. I just wanted Jesus the Christ to be treated right. In my opinion most Muslims do not properly accnowlege him, with perhaps the exception of the Sufi who I have just started to study.

For me, Mormons stand alone in their knowlege of the Bom, however most do not know the Bible very well.

A product of being an outcast is there is lots of time to contemplate, pray and study. Sometimes even harshness and pain breeds thankfulness and obedience to Heavenly Father.

I agree with many of the same things you said in your opening statement. I must leave now, but will humbly give you my opinion of your statement in a little while. I can not leave this and come back because this site willl time out.

Kind of a weird question, but yeah....I'll deny that. Guilt brings remorse, and when it is the right kind of remorse, it leads

to repentance, forgiveness, and restoration. Guilt just for the sake of guilt....not so much.

This may be premature, but it is my fervent prayer that we will find genetic causation for gays and lesbians. Then we will have to figure out how to address that.

They will, give them time. They just need more knowledge on the subject and for the shock to wear off. I'm so glad you shared with us awhile back, it makes it so easy to see where you're coming from now. Your family are just more connected and have known you a different way, as you already know of course, not telling you anything new. So glad you have this new evidence to support your case, not that anyone should have to have that to go by what they feel is right for them, but glad it gives you peace.

I almost crashed in the Bishops office with the pres there. My Stepfather tried to killl me over this, and said he would if I did not do what he wanted and it has been a life ime and I just don't know that to do now. I want to laugh and cry at the same time and dance in the street.

Finding reasons for things that have been long unexplained can bring peace! God bless!

Yes! Thank you. I am so excited. I wish there were more peopple up to share this with. :)000000000000000000000000000000000000

The only thing we can yield is our will. 

Yes, our will. And I give it freely to Heavenly Father. Tonight I got confirmation that I have an extra gene. This explains so much, thought I doubt that the family will listen. I have peace.

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

You know, this just fries me out !!!! In Islam, women are always getting the blame for male lust. I never thought i would see this in Mormonism

That was a story I posted. It was a joke; the story is not real.

I worked with several NPO's doing volunteer work. I am going to give you a TMI warning because some do not seem able to handle the blunt truth.

There were some twins I ran into whose doper parents had castrated the little boy and given him Estrogen. The Parents died. The twins were around 19 the last time I saw them. They look alike, and are very messed up and I pray that they are happier and are alive. Just talk to some cops, firemen and social workers. It gets worse, much worse.

I have a son whose son in law works for Homeland Security. He says most of their budget is to stop the illegal trafficing of young women. So, I would suggest that people do the best they can and raise their children before a holy God.

In this thread, I am not taking a position of extremes, where heterosexual families are viewed as pristine and invariably wonderful, and homosexual "families' as viewed as inherently evil and dispicable.

 

Rather, among several things, I am practically considering several child-centric claims made to promote gay marriage.

 

To me, the facts suggest that children of gay parents haven't fallen through the societal cracks, and are even being cared for more by the government than children of heterosexuals.

 

i also believe the facts suggest that children of homosexual parents do NOT fare as well as children of heterosexual parents, and are at greater risk for realizing the kinds of problems associated with divorce and domestic violence.

 

Others are free to think otherwise.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I  don't know if there is a difference. All I can do is to live my own life in a way that I believe is pleasing to Heavenly Father.

As intimated before, i hold little expectation of changing anyone's mind on the topic of mangling the legal definition of marriage, and for the most part i consider it a foregone conclusion in the not-to-distant future.

 

So, the intent of this thread isn't to debate whether SSM should be legalized or not.

 

Instead I wish to discuss how it was that many in and out of our religion went from condemning to embracing homosexuality by way of government sanction, and the realized and potential consequences resulting therefrom.

 

In other words, I wish to examine how children have been used to convince good and decent people to march towards Gomorah, and how the sins of those marching fathers, so to speak, will be visited upon the heads of the children.

 

I propose at least four parts to this discussion:

 

1. How adults have been duped into supporting SSM through the exploitation of children.

2. How children have been duped into supporting SSM, thereby being exploited.

3. How organizations bent on exploiting children have been involved in the gay and SSM movement.

4. How children may have been and may yet be harmed, and thus exploited, because of the movement to legalize SSM

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I would actually have preferred to have loving, well balanced parents ... including gay ones if that is what it took.

My contact with the gay community has not been extensive, though a lesbian woman I know says that lesbian couples have lots of problems. I do not know if they have more issues than hetro couples.

My hetro family completely trashed me and acted like complete red necks when in fact I was not anything but hetro. Hmmm it is almost sounding like you are the pot calling the kettle black.

God can do what he likes. The hardest sacrifices in the scriptures are not usually required of everyone. Everyone who is true and faithful will have some kind of great test but few are asked to give up all they possess or sacrifice their child. The question is could we?

Sometimes there is no choice.  If you are in a bleak, featureless, dark emptiness where all that you loved is gone and those who loved you now hate you. You hate the Creator, or yield to the will of the one who made you to the abandonment of all else.

Castration?

 

Seriously it means remove impediments from your life even if they are dear to you and seem like they are intrinsically a part of you. It is a stinging indictment of people who refuse to repent or change because "that is the way I am". It is a commandment to remove influences and attributes that weaken you in God's eyes even if removing them will lessen you in man's eyes. Think killing social attributes that God dislikes but that make you personable; that kind of thing.

 

Also if your eye is literally going to damn you I think you should literally pluck it out. I have never seen this occur in practice.

We don't often talk about those uncomfortable passages where Jesus the Christ that he taught. What were the passages? Were they to be put away  and never spoken of? Remember what Jesus our Christ said to the rich man who wanted to join him? Sell all that you have and ... How many of us do that willingly? What if Heavenly Father does that for us? What if circumstances tear all unwholesome distractions from us so that we can devote our time, lives, and love to Heavenly Father? What if he chose us to serve him in that way? What if he chose to redeem a ruined life and restore it?

Who is to stand between I and Heavenly Father and say that he can not do that?

I don't know. Hopefully in time all the way.

Jesus Christ said, "If thine right eye offend thee, pluck it out. If thine right hand offend thee cut it off".  How do you think that translates into modern culture?

Meet the solution:

 

 

Or at least one artist's depiction of the solution.

So, how far will you go to accept Jesus Christ's Solution?

Scenes of the first Twilight movie were filmed in the Columbia Gorge Below Bonneville. It is so lovely there.

So, 7 pages an no real solutions. It is as normal.

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

I wanted to read the article, but this link does not go to it.

As long as this stuff is hidden and full of shame, it will never be stopped. I know it is icky. Mark my words, if people can talk about anything the shame will be gone, and surprising solutions and understanding will happen.

But it seems you are defending it....what could a little bit hurt?

A little bit gets to be a lot?

I applaud you for finally coming out... I imagine it will be such a relief to finally have that burden lifted from your shoulders. You can now have the support you have always needed for your true self.  

I wonder if this will make me famous actress or news caster?

Is failure to understand Arabic an obstacle to really understanding the Quran for most

Muslims?  

 

In some cultures (American, European, etc) where Islamic tradition is more stringent

(since hijab is not mentioned in the Quran), the emphasis is more on the woman

wearing the hijab and nothing really equivalent for the man to wear.  Is this because

Muslim women are totally capable of not viewing men with sexual desire?

 

Gail

Actually, most Muslims speak at least some Arabic, even the "Persian" Shia Muslims who actually speak Persian, also understand Modern Arabic. However the Qur'an is written in classical Arabic that is not spoken today. So Muslims will tell you that any English version is an interpretation of what the Arabic says, and no one agrees as to exactly what the Arabic says, though most Muslims I met preferred the Yusuf Ali version. The Qur'an was never translated multiple times like the Bible but scholars still argue about what it says.

Surah 4:34 is a good case in point. In it, the man is the boss full stop, and that section goes into what sorts of inducements that the man can offer a disobedient wife, with the last being that he can beat her. There is wide agreement today as to whether an man can hit the wife or not. At one extreme, the man can only tap the wife with a pencil sized stick, and in others the man can beat her but is not to do permanent injury. Yalllah  !!!

Muslims rely on their Imam to interpret the Qur'an.

In my opinion, the most devout and devoted Muslims are in America, because religion is largely voluntary here unless you are Muslim or Catholic. But family presures being what they are, even in America we are often forced to conform. In Muslim countries, there is no choice, you are Muslim and to try to not be can easilly get you killed.

As to the Hijab, Women are often thrown into prison or stoned or beheaded for not wearing Hijab in other countries. Men are to observe the practice of Hijab but since we have the social status of cows, the men pretty much do as they wish unless in KSA. Yes, Hijab is not in the Qur'an, but there are Fatwas and Hadeeths, which for the purpose of discussion can be seen like the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, and the messages of the Prophet.

Lust is a part of being human. I am having computer issues, so will have to finish this later.

Yes, the Atonement can triumph over such an issue. Your friends will speak to you over and over again!

They will, really? This such a blessing in my life. Thank you for sharing that !

It is such a burden to carry around the fact that I am Heterosexual and no one knows. And it hard to tell you all but I have only had one sexual partner in all my life and there will likely never be another. OH the shame of it all. I feel like a pariah. Can even the Atonement triumph over such an issue? I worry so much about what people would think of me if they knew my secret and now it is out! Will anyone ever speak to me again?

You are such a BRAT ! 

It is such a burden to carry around the fact that I am Heterosexual and no one knows. And it hard to tell you all but I have only had one sexual partner in all my life and there will likely never be another. OH the shame of it all. I feel like a pariah. Can even the Atonement triumph over such an issue? I worry so much about what people would think of me if they knew my secret and now it is out! Will anyone ever speak to me again?

I have been reading the Bible Unearthed and watched the long youtube video by authors Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. They write "According to the biblical narrative, the children of Israel campled at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clar from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well watered oasis of Ein el-Qudeirat in eastern Sinai, on the borde between modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably perserved ober the centuries in the name of a nearby smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a Late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavationis and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided evne the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees" PAGE 63 The Bible Unearthed.

 

They find no evidence for a number of other sites. Perhaps Robert Smith has the counter evidence?

My gosh were do you people come from? Go back and read where the serpent is tempting Eve. This sounds just like him.