EllenMaksoud

http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-history-evolution.php

 

Personally, I don't see the need for a conflict between the idea of evoution and the scriptural accounts. Conflict only seems to come when we try to make evolution a world-view (Neo Darwinianism) or take the scriptural accounts as literal.

 

St. Augustine (around 400AD--not a GA (duh)) clued into the dangers of an overly-literal interpretation of scripture (from St. Augustine's De Genesi ad Litteram I, xix, 39):

 

And here's one from James E. Talmage:

 

 

For me, it's the covenants that bring Mormons together, not idealogies. When I read the scriptural creation accounts from the lens of covenants it makes much more sense to me vs. trying to only interpret it literally.

If everyone agreed, then someone would not be necessary.

Darwinism is sort of critically debunked, however an approximation of Evolution explains some things. My caveat would be that there is someone behind that curtain running things, as in the "Wizard of Oz", which in my estimation is one of the sharpest blendings of religion, fantasy and evolution ever.

Polygamy only started in the world after man's fall from grace, before that God set the standard in the example of Adam and Eve becoming one flesh, which was reiterated by Christ. In the perfect world that God wished for man there would have been no polygamy, it started after we sinned, it was not instituted by God

I can influence no one's morality but mine. That there are worse offenses toward God than polygamy, I am sure. After reading the book of Jacob, it is hard for me to see God's permitting it. At my age, with my mortality coming at me like a ravening banshee, it will not affect me.

I thought we fairly consistently refer to the re-establishment of the Nation of Israel as the gathering of Israel... or are you talking about something else?

When I was in Israel in 2001, I think I was told that only about 30% of Israelis are religous.

So I am between 1/8 and 1/4 Native American. Man were is my papoose?  I am Northern European 15,000 years ago, where is my hide bag for the gathering of berries?

We have idealistic ideas about Jews in Israel. Are they the true Nation of Israel, or is it some other people? Perhaps it is people who are devoutly worshipping God in spirit and truth?

I am not sure.  There are at least two journal reports among my ancestors that the first wives were the ones that bugged their husbands to get a second one.

 

It would be interesting to see some data, but I am not sure there is enough out there.

I was profoundly touched when I walked into one of the habitations at the Kirtland Visitor's Center. The folk of the 1830's did not yet have a kitchen, indoor plumbing, refrigeration, or even a simple kitchen sink. I was most surprised when I turned round and saw a large fireplace, and in the fireplace was an Iron bar that swung in and out of the fireplace like a crane. I learned it was called a "Wife Saver". The woman's dresses of the day often caught fire when they reached in to stir the pots. The crane allowed the pot to be removed from the fire to stir and add ingredients.

So, I imagine the women of the day were so burdened by their labors that they would welcome additional help. I wonder if that is the actual origination of polygamous practice. So, now I wonder when the book of Jacob was translated?

"Maybe when there is an old guy my age as President he will have been exposed to Science enough to right some wrongs. Until then, good luck."

 

I was just wondering what you meant by "exposed to Science enough to right some wrongs"?

 

I'm investigating the church, and am curious if there's something I need to know about the teaching they have on science?

I will say this. Heavenly Father used the Mormon Sisters to bring me to knowledge of the restored gospel, and to save my life. It would save time for you to look up my thread "Saving Lives".  The church is true, and a clear guide for those who seek knowledge and the will of Heavenly Father. Still, as our progression proceeds, there are areas where we are ignorant.

People with leprosy were once rejected and thought to be unclean. Now days we know it as fungal Hansen's disease and measures can be taken to arrest its progress. Now days, there are conditions that most in our culture see as moral issues. In time, I pray that our science will make understanding, and possibly a cure possible.

Please don't be afraid to seek out the church. It will take time for things to make sense. Please read your Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the other Mormon documents faithfully.

We can talk later if you wish.

In contrast to your story about Heber C. Kimball, I read in some comments on the Feminist Mormon Housewives blog that Richard G. Scott promised his wife before she died that he would not remarry, and has kept his promise. She must not have wanted to share him.

I have not understood how the book of Jacob could have been written given the events that later transpired. I am from a culture (Muslim) that freely practiced polygamy, even in the USA, and still does; may I say with impunity? Yet, even in that culture, I never met a Muslim woman who was happy with it. In the present, I have not met a woman who liked the idea, Muslim or other.

It would be instructive to see a Mormon woman author a thread here that showed her in favor of such practice for she would be unique woman indeed. It would be interesting to see if any women have ever authored a thread in favor here. Me thinks it has all been men. Hmmmm.

Should it again be done by Godly purpose, I am sure that there will be special circumstances present, none of which we want to see happen.

I don't have anything against 50's music.  But I am so sick and tired of every stake and ward dance or musical event for adults including only 50's stuff and maybe some 60's.  How old do I have to be before I hear 70's, 80's, 90's and even some recent music at these activities?  Is it only my Stake? Chaperoning youth dances doesn't count.

 

I think that Evanescence, Five Finger, and Ft Minor are far superior.

But what about the week or the month?

 

Though, seriously, I admit I'm not even sure of the century. I feel pretty confident about the millennium it will happen in though.

I sometimes suspect that it is humans that are holding it up. We wish to be rescued in the midst of squabbling and killing each other. What if we are expected to grow enough to settle our differences and live in peace before we move on to the next life. Were I God, I would not want heathenous malcontents tracking up my carpets, leaving their dirty dishes in the sink, leaving the seat up, throwing your insideout socks on the floor, and returning the car out of gas with dents in it.

I'm 28 and it would be awesome if it happened in my lifetime, but guess how many years away we are from the 2nd coming.

Matt 24:36 KJV "No man knoweth the day or the hour ...

My 13-year old son read Ender's Game because I promised to take him to the movie. For Christmas I gave him the 4-volume Ender's Shadow series. He finished it off in 6 weeks and is now nearly finished with the "Speaker for the Dead" sequal line. There must be something about those books that intrigues young teenage boys because he'd rather read OSC than play minecraft, and that's saying something.

In the circumstances I was in, there was just lots of time to read, and no TV or Video games. I think that Andre Norton was one of the first; then Heinlein. Amazingly I managed a trudge through Asimov's, "Foundation Trillogy", which I now understand is 6 books. Then there was the whole "Dragon Riders of Pern" series.  "Sassinak" is in my opinion a classic. There was of course Weber, and some John Ringo, though he went macho war maker on me, so I lost interest.

My early reading also included a version of the Bible that had Black men as the henchmen of Satan; no idea whose. And then a couple different versions of the legitimate Bible. I may have read the BOM when I was around 13, but I do not know where I got it and am now disappointed that who ever gave it to me did not follow up. At that time, an active, caring God would have been a welcome addition in life.

You have blown me away, you have got real guts. Thank you for being so trusting, telling you story cannot have been easy. God bless you Gwen, always know that he loves you and is the wind beneath your wings.

At the Ward level people are absolutely accepting, kind, loving and faithful to Heavenly Father. That there is issue with the GA is sad, really sad. The focus for me is to be as pleasing to Heavenly Father as posible. Yes, no Mini Skirts, Racoon makeup, towering heels, and exhibitionist conduct for this woman. I'm actually very boring to be around, and no one seems to know or care.

As to the Temple, and Patriotic Blessing, yes I would like to have that, but apparently Heavenly Father feels I do not need that to serve him. With God on my side, who can be against me?  The only thing I ask is that people stop talking about it with me. It is like twisting the knife.

I think "repugnant" might be more appropriate. At least you didn't have to live through it : )

 

We really do live in a very unique and fragile time. Let's hope when civilization begins to unravel, the pendulum doesn't swing too far in the opposite direction.

Mother did not know that she could own property in the early 50's.

Now days, in some colleges, more than half the students are women. In some sects of Islam, it is still acceptable for a husband to beat his wife.

Yes, I agree that our culture is failing.  I just hope it does not take that for women to be respected on an equal basis. Though I would not want priest hood. I can't do one more thing ! 

That's simply your opinion. Just because we don't agree does not make something sophomoric. However, I started the topic to express my objection since the lack of objection would be to condone. 

 

True faith would dictate that if ordaining women was the will of God he would simply command it. Protesting is the self-serving method of attempting to change His doctrine.

This reminds me of reading about the women's movement in the 19th century. All that is missing is the smoky rooms with men sitting in over stuffed chairs, drinking whiskey and smoking expensive cigars. Pitiful.

My goal is to learn to do what God wants me to do and stop questioning and worrying so much about what I want to do, what my family wants me to do, what society wants me to do, etc.

I know that if I could just learn to bend my will to God that I would have far fewer worries, at least in the long run.

Would you like a response to that?

Studies have shown that suicides go up with talk about prevention. It may not always be wise to talk about it if the goal is to decrease it. There may be better ways to help including avoiding any publication of them.

I often wonder if the truth about all this is well known in Scientific Circles, but it is strongly surpressed in conservative religious groups so they do not have to deal with it. The only illustration I can think of that has any similarity at all is the flat/round Earth debate. I "think" Copernicus really brought it out in the open, but he was forced to recant his theory. He lived 1473-1543 AD. Columbus proved it in 1492 AD. I wonder if they knew each other?

Remember there was a discussion somewhat early in the Catholic church that sex was for procreation only. Now days most people believe that is backward thinking.

I mentioned to someone the other day that one day science may prove that we are genetically gay at birth. His response was that he still needed to resist that sin. Hmmm.

One of the scriptures that certain folk like to trot out and wave around a bit is Deut 22:5. Yes, the tiresome one about who wears what clothing. (rolls eyes)(   I just can't remember how many times Jewish scholars have debunked that one. It says roughly that Males and Females should not be in the same tent.  I am going to go look for someplace safe because the Artillery will soon start.

I do not know if I will live long enough for this issue to get worked out.

I just saw an interview and story about how "Ordain Women" is once again planning to attend the Priesthood Session. Only this time with twice as many women. How many more sessions will we have to endure the supposed "faithful" female members crashing Priesthood before some type of action occurs to deter it?

This objection is sophomoric.

It is so frustrating that in Science Fiction and Fantasy women are half naked flesh pots. Anne Mccaffrey is almost the only author who wrote books with realistic female characters.

Just wondering.

There are several non-Mormons here. I am interested as to why a non=Mormon would wish to come to a Mormon page? Do you have legitimate questions?

Are you Catholic? There are Catholics here. Are you religious? On the surface, Mormons are a lot like the old Evangelical churches, except we do not practice the trinity, and in the case of my old denomination Mormons do not practice the angry hate and condemnation that I saw in the past. Mormons have a living Prophet, and practice that the Bible is alive. In the case of that last part of the book of Revelations, Mormons do not believe that the Bible stopped with that book. AND if you take a fresh look at the ending statement of it, you will find that the statement applies only to that Book.

Welcome

I've burst out crying in front of a sister who asked me how I was doing. It happens.

When I first started with the Sisters in Kirtland, it seems like I cried constantly for about 3 months. I was guilt, oh so guilty. So when they started in on the Atonement I believed it but it was not for me. I was too far gone. Apparently this is a fairly typical issue with investigators. Who would have known?  I thought my sin was too severe to be forgiven.

I see the words "and he shall rule over thee" as descriptive rather than prescriptive.  I don't see any indication that such a state is a desirable or recommended one, but that it is undesirable, and one of the natural consequences of the Fall ... but not something that needs to be accepted or obeyed.

 

It's always been true that we tend to get ahead in life only by "the sweat of our brow"  and that men tend to rule over women (the effects of the curse), but the effects of grace are that we can have joy in providing a livelihood for ourselves, and that we can have a state of equality and mutual submission between men and women.

I see it worked out in a more Biological or Anthropological way.  It is so subtle at times that it happens completely without personal awareness. Scientists say men are 15 to 20% larger than women but at times, it is more than 100% difference. Not being a trained psychological researcher, I suspect that many of our social mores come from simple biological need. In the old days it was hard for a 100lb woman to drag her 20lb baby around and fight off warriors and tigers, so having a 250lb mate around was a great luxury, and one sort of had to let him have his way unless you were really crafty.

Now days we see that played out in what people think of as more subtle ways. In most jobs, men get paid more. Just leaving religion out of it, women are taught to take the blame when things don't work out, or at least we perceive it that way. And, what woman would want to put the chains on the car if a man was there to do it? A lot of that is that we have the perception that we must always look nice, but the men get off easier. Though I think that has declined a lot in the last decade perhaps.

That's why I no longer read fiction. The last fiction I read was over 20 years ago , some of Leon Uris' stuff and that was historical fiction. My son writes sci-fi fantasy but hasn't published yet.

I must admit I did like the Tarzan series by Burroughs in my youth.

David Weber's, "Honor Harrington Series", was lovely, but since he has gone off the rails for me.

I want to become a filmmaker, concert promoter, author, and fitness instructor. I'm passionate about all those things but I'm not sure which one I'm most passionate about, so I figured what the heck, let's try all of them. And I'm already getting started -- one of my best friends is pursuing an acting career and wants me to direct a movie with him, I'm working on putting on my first concert, I hope to have a book I'm co-writing with another best friend on the shelves by the end of 2015, and I'm going to start working towards getting my personal trainer certification. And I want to organize a charity foundation of some kind. I just want to dedicate my life to helping people smile a bit more. I think the world needs that.

 

But most importantly, my most heartfelt goal is to be a husband and father. That would be the highest calling for me.

Being a good husband takes a lot of patience.  I am sorry, we women get emotional and irritating at times, though we try very hard to please. The calm, steadying hand of a faithful husband is rare, at least it was for me.

I have been toying with the idea of making a Youtube movie. I wrote a story that just has my heart. I love it, and I think it is funny, off beat and should capture hearts. I have not decided if it should be stop motion clay mation, or drawn art on paper.  I do not know if I will ever get to it.

Only not popular in the sense that no one really thinks about it.  This is the first time I have heard about it in the US that I remember in fact, though undoubtedly I have heard it mentioned in passing…I do remember something about the UN's celebration of it.

 

It is not something that is made a big deal of in the US that I am aware of, possibly because it was made a big deal of in the Soviet Union and Europe.  Got to be different after all.****

 

Now in Russia, they had holidays celebrating women (while in reality being a lot behind the US in equality in my experience, the female professors would tell us how all the male professors treated them like secretaries) and these were noticed by members.

 

Here is mention of the holiday in conjunction with an award in Australia:

 

https://www.lds.org/church/news/print/latter-day-saint-recognized-for-aboriginal-family-history-work?lang=eng&country=au

 

****

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Women's_Day

I suppose it is important to me because I have been in other cultures, seen it and experienced it. I must clarify that my time as a Mormon woman has renewed my faith in men.

So you aren't sure what "they" are reacting to??? Well, let me make it perfectly clear.... again.

I am not "offended," but I strongly object to your broadcasting on the open board your own personal but erroneous opinions about Mormons and/or Mormon culture that may cause a non-LDS person participating on the board to get a wrong impression about Mormonism or its members...  may even turn them away or keep them from further investigating the Church.

 

Case in point... the thread you started here in the Social Forum on "Do Americans Know?  Do Mormons Know?... specifically your post #25 where you make two statements that misrepresent Mormons and our faith.  You have every right to your personal opinions, absolutely, but when you put those opinions out on the open board as if they are based in fact don't expect those of us who know they are erroneous to simply sit by and let you blather forth those opinions without responding.

 

Statement #1... As Mormons we will get in a lot of trouble for speaking out against the Military/Industrial Complex.    

 

Statement #2... You have learned that there are penalties for not towing "the Mormon political line."

 

I, and a couple of others have objected, asking you to enlighten us on just what "trouble" and/or "penalties" you are talking about.  Further, we have asked you to identify just what is the "Mormon political line." 

 

In response to my posts challenging these statements, you said you appreciated my criticism but felt that the "truth" should be told but perhaps not in this venue... Truth??  Really?? 

 

Ellen, I'm not offended per se... but I do call you on posting your personal opinions as if they are factual, which they are not, and apply to "Mormons," which they don't (see statement one).

And also making statements such as there being a "Mormon political line" that we are supposed to follow or face penalties (see statement 2).

 

Then you start this thread on "inadvertent offensiveness" wherein you posit that you just aren't sure what we are reacting to...  really?

 

GG

Actually, I have gotten trouble over disputing opinions of _____ Mormons, one in my Ward, and the other was one of the Sisters who had previously taught me in Kirtland, Ohio. It is perfectly fine for someone to have an opinion, but mine is neither Democrat nor Republican nor perhaps in the middle. I have my own opinions, but to state them on this forum is a sure thread locker.

OK, well perhaps it is not the Mormon party line, but being Mormon, I have somehow found that all who I associate with are Mormons. Perhaps I should remedy that.

One option is to become inactive and let it all cool off.

Since you know who I am, you have the perfect opportunity to get me thrown from the church. I've been worried that this whole Mormon thing would collapse on me. It has been a good three years or March 11th would have been. I can handle it.

Ellen you are a good addition to the Board,. But if you continue to open multiple daily threads to air personal complaints you will be put on restricted status.

Today is International Women's Day. I was surprised that no one talked about it. I did not even know about it until an hour ago.  I know it is not popular for Mormon women to speak of it, but the day is what we make of it. I am not a man hater extremist but I have seen and been impacted by the mistreatment and lack of rights for women in other areas of the world.

And in truth, women in America in general are pushed, prodded, cajoled and presured to smile all the time, to be a size something or other, be perfect, do it all, put out for the boys, take our clothes off and be happy about photoshopping on magazine covers.

If you have a decent man, hang onto him.