MiserereNobis

I think it is the belief that God and humans are the same nature, same species so to speak, that there is no fundamental difference between creator and creature (I wanted to say createe, but it's always fun when we can call ourselves creatures). So, as far as I understand your beliefs, the idea that God is an exalted human.

I'd say it wouldn't be faith if there weren't things we don't quite understand or struggle with.

Yeah, that can work, but it does get a little interesting because there are Eastern Churches within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is made up of 24 autonomous particular churches. 1 of them is the Latin Church that everyone thinks of when they think of the Catholic Church. It makes up probably 98-99% of the Catholic Church population and uses the Latin rite for liturgy. The other 23 are Eastern Catholic Churches. This means that they follow the eastern rites for liturgy (there's like 5 or 6 different rites). They are basically indistinguishable from appearance from Eastern Orthodox churches, but they are in full communion with the Pope, recognizing his supremacy. So the taxonomy of having the Catholic Church under Western (Latin) Christianity doesn't take them into account, because they are not Western nor Latin and yet are part of the Catholic Church. Maybe just remove the Western (Latin) Christianity part and go from Nicene / Chalcedonian to The Catholic Church? I went hunting for a genealogy of Christianity, so to speak, but I didn't find the exact one I remember. Here's one that's decent that shows the reunion of some of the Eastern Churches into Catholicism. I don't know how accurate this is in regards to other churches and it conspicuously does not have restorationists.

To clarify, smac isn't saying this, he is quoting the article by Christiansen. He is accurate that Catholicism doesn't consider LDS "sacramentally Christian." The key word here is "sacramentally." Baptism is part of the Sacrament of Christian Initiation. In other words, it is the first step to becoming a sacramental Christian (the next two are confirmation and receiving the Eucharist). If someone has been baptized validly, they have taken the first step and are thus in partial communion with the Catholic Church. I've always kinda giggled at that. Someone gets baptized as a, say, Lutheran, and without their knowledge they have now partially joined the Catholic Church, ha. To enter full communion with the Catholic Church, someone has to also complete the other steps: be confirmed and receive the Eucharist. So, if that Lutheran converts later on in life, they don't need to be baptized because their first baptism was valid. They would need to be confirmed, however, and then receive the Eucharist. Now they are in full communion and fully sacramentally Christian. Not being sacramentally Christian doesn't mean you aren't Christian in my view, though obviously others disagree (like the author of the article). Now, let's get into why LDS baptism is considered invalid. All sacraments require three things to be valid: proper matter, proper form, proper intent. Matter is what is used or done physically, in this case water. Form is the words, in this case baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Intent is to do what the Catholic Church intends to be done. Some sacraments also require a valid minister, meaning either a priest or a bishop (though often the bishops delegate to priests). Baptism, however, does not, so the question of whether or not a baptism is valid does not hinge on priestly authority. That is why some non-Catholic baptisms are valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church. The 2001 dubium that Christiansen refers to clarified that the Catholic Church views LDS baptism as invalid because the form and intent are invalid. (A dubium is a question submitted to the Church for clarification, in this case whether or not LDS baptism is valid). For form, it specifically points to LDS understanding of God, not just as non-Trinitarian but also the belief that God and humans are of the same nature. So while the words are the same, the meaning behind the words are different. Here is the section of that document relevant to form: The intent is also considered invalid, beginning with the large doctrinal differences on the nature of God, but also because part of the intent of baptism is the remission of original sin. The dubium also argues that the LDS belief that Christ did not innovate baptism makes it invalid. Here's the section on that: Finally, the dubium ends on a positive note: I hope that the dubium is accurate in its portrayal of your beliefs. It looks like they went to good lengths to have primary sources from your church. A link to the full document is here.

For me, a Christian is someone who fits into the greater umbrella of Christianity, which I am fine being large and with not very clearly defined borders. If someone says they are a Christian, and their basic beliefs fit into the basic idea of Christianity, then sure, they are Christian. So they don't have to be Trinitarian to be Christian. That just makes them a heretic But seriously, for me it is not a big deal and I don't spend energy on it. Is there a term LDS use to refer to other churches that trace themselves back to Joseph Smith (Strangites, Community of Christ, FLDS, etc)? I see this as an interesting parallel. Everyone who believes in Christ is Christian, even if they differ on theological and ecclesiastical points. Everyone who believes Joseph Smith was a prophet is a "?" even if they differ on theological and ecclesiastical points. Latter-day Saint Restorationist? A Smithian? Just curious. In the end, it is a mystery of faith. It's often easier to say what it is not (the Trinitarian heresies). For example, modalism is the idea that there is one God who shows up in three different modes/forms (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) rather than three persons in one God. Yeah, complicated stuff.

Hi Navidad, Is it that you truly don’t understand the LDS claim to have the only authorized priesthood of God, or that you don’t agree with it? For example, there are many LDS (it seems to me) that don’t understand the Trinity. It’s not just that they disagree with it, they misunderstand it as modalism or another heresy. Their misunderstanding can be cleared up, and then they can disagree with the actual doctrine. Is this where you are at with LDS exclusivity claims, that you don’t understand it? Or is it just that you just don’t agree? While you didn’t ask me, I’ll toss out my answer. Like smac, I also cherish the religious pluralism of the US, meaning I’m glad the US government doesn’t/shouldn’t treat religions differently. Do I wish people were Catholic? Sure. Do I want the US government to force Catholicism on others? No. Let Christ and the Holy Sprit bring them to Holy Mother Church, not the heavy hand of the government.

Buddhism has 2 major divisions: Theravada and Mahayana. Think Catholic and Protestant. Theravada is the official Buddhism of Thailand. Yes, for me the difference is number of adherents vs. official state religion. The US is a Christian nation in terms of the former but not the latter. Thailand is a Buddhist nation in both ways. All my love, Rory! Jesse

Those countries are explicitly Buddhist and Muslim. Egypt declares Islam the state religion. Thailand’s government is very much involved in Theravadan Buddhism. It’s not the number of adherents, but the relationship of the State to the religion.

I do like how religious leaders are weighing in on this. Pope Leo’s encyclical was spot on, I thought. I think using grok was fine. It’s a good use of the tool for a high level summary. @smac97, those pictures are beautiful! Will you give an MD&D discount? 😁 In seriousness, though, it’s cool you’ve got a place for people to proverbially “touch grass.”

This isn’t true. Catholics and Protestants aren’t interchangeable when it comes to sacraments and authority. We generally view their sacraments as invalid and they are generally barred from ours.

I can't imagine they would stay in the military when they convert. And I can't imagine the military would allow someone to stay who, even if they are a non-combatant, wouldn't salute, say the pledge, sing the national anthem, attend patriotic services, etc.

Don't be mad at them. Be mad at the system and the rich people who receive the greatest advantages of the system, and thus set the system up the way it is.

Have You Been to Jail for Justice? (great song) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LfN3V3id8&t=2131s

Brethren are there:

Why are Jehovah's Witnesses on the list? They don't serve in the military.

Everyone knows that Latin is the heavenly language

Unfortunately I don't have a good book of the history to recommend. It was just things I picked up when I lived there. And yes, you should go!

Moravia was on and off directly a part of the Kingdom of Bohemia or part of the Lands of the Bohemia Crown. It is confusing nomenclature when we go back to the Middle Ages. If you go back even farther, you have Great Moravia, which encompassed Bohemia. I haven't studied that part of their history in depth. My post was more tongue-in-cheek, though the Moravians have long considered themselves distinct, regardless of the political situation of who is ruling them. Today it is very distinct: Bohemia refers to the eastern part of the Czech Republic, and Moravia the western part (with Silesia up north). There is even a small Moravian separatist movement, that would like to see them become their own country.

Again, I miss mfbukowki. He would have some interesting things to add here about humanism, since he views LDS beliefs as the highest form of humanism.

Yeah, no, missionaries should not be saying that. Or maybe they don't have an understanding of the Blessed Virgin, her role in Catholicism and Mexican culture, and the devotion to Her.

Jan Komensky is rolling in his grave that you said Bohemia I lived in the Czech Republic for a couple of years and my favorite town was Uherske Hradiste and the villages nearby, including Uherske Brod, the birth place of Komensky. This is on the Morava river and the center of Moravian Slovakia. The Moravians are a proud people and very much distinguish themselves from Bohemia. It is an absolutely wonderful area, full of traditions, folklore, songs (oh, the folksongs are so good, with dulcimers and fiddles), wine, on and on. I fell in love with it immediately and still love it dearly to this day.

Do you mean literally in the universe? That one could hypothetically travel to God? The scientific materialism of some/most LDS has always intrigued me.

American Christian Nationalists are not your friends (nor friends of Catholicism, either).

LDS friends, is there ever a situation where Our Father is prayed together?

Could this anti-establishment attitude have anything to do with your foray into the Grateful Dead world? Those Oregon ‘93 shows were hot!