Nominee

Is that what the denial of the Holy Ghost is?

Denying His existence?

Well, it's not about rebelling. Your own post explains that even one who knowingly rebels against God can be saved through repentance.

Like TAO is saying, it's not JUST denying his existence - It is denying his existence when you know him to be as real as you know yourself to be.

White shirts have been mentioned by our prophets and in our handbooks. They are not merely an incorrect perception just because some people would like them to be.

~ Naomi

You are wrong on both counts. (1) It was not intended to cause a stir. It was just supposed to be a small opening gesture by All Enlisted. The organizers were dumbfounded when it became national news, mostly because of the internet outrage the thing caused. (2) It did cause an incredible stir. The website had to be taken down because of all the nasty and threatening comments from Mormons. There were specific death threats, and the original spokesperson for the event had to step down for her own safety.

I disagree with you on #1. It was intended to cause a stir. It would be ludicrous to say that they expected no negative or positive attention (even in the positive, a stir is a stir) either locally or nationwide when their efforts were organized for the purpose of drawing attention to anything at all - ON FACEBOOK.

I can share my own knowledge of God for comparison.

I know that my Heavenly Father; his son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Spirit exist and are beyond the shadow of any doubt. Nothing said at any time by anyone could change that. It would be easier to try to convince me that I never gave birth to my children and raised them up these last many years. To convince me that my son, Caleb, is not sitting next to me right now while I look upon him would be easier than to convince me the Holy Spirit is not with us.

That said, I have been angry with God, I have ignored the Holy Spirit, I have sinned in my life - knowing that I was doing so. But I have NEVER denied the existence of any portion of the Godhead!

What you "think you know" and what you know are not the same. You would have to KNOW. For me, to deny the existence of the Holy Ghost would be comparable to me being in this room, 5 feet from our Christmas tree, and you to come in and ask me, "Is that a Christmas tree right here in this room in front of us?" And for me to look at you and say "There is no tree in this room." This is denial when having a knowledge of the truth.

I do not know God because I have lived long enough, or researched well enough, or am willing or susceptible enough. I know God because he has revealed himself to me through his (the) Holy Spirit. And for this, I know the Spirit too and could never deny it.

They are not only real, they are alive.

~ Naomi

Some conference talks:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng&query=eve+transgression

While visiting the British Museum in London one day, I read a most unusual book. It is not scripture. It is an English translation of an ancient Egyptian manuscript. From it, I quote a dialogue between the Father and the Son. Referring to His Father, Jehovah—the premortal Lord—says:

“He took the clay from the hand of the angel, and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And He heaved sighs over him daily, saying, ‘If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command.’”

^{http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/04/the-creation?lang=eng&query=eve+transgression}

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/the-atonement-all-for-all?lang=eng&query=eve+transgression

That is beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with us.

~ Naomi

But Adam was also commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. Neither commandment could prevail except at the expense of the other.

You go to the Temple! You know your stuff. Bravo!

That makes complete sense to me. Thank you for introducing me to a new angle on this difficult question. Makes sense of a statement made by Lucifer in the temple endowment. Thank you once again.

Yup, I'm with you on this and for the same reason. When I first read NoFear's statement the words of Lucifer in response to God asking him "What have you done?", Immediately came to mind. Makes perfect sense to me.

I was going to say that right away but thought I better read through the whole thread 1st and see if someone else didn't already catch that. And now, here I am - and you did! I am so thankful for the enlightenment I receive in the Temple. Thank you, Heavenly Father.

~ Naomi

Edit: oops, this is referring to pg 1, post 11

I was the only female ward missionary before I became RS teacher. It never crossed my mind to be uncomfortable about it. Looking back now, I probably talked more than the men in those meetings - I'm not exactly a wall flower and its a good bet she isn't either given her calling. If she is being set apart as a ward missionary then she is going to have what it takes. However, I have to point out that YOU sound like the one that is uncomfortable. Don't let this carry over by being overly sensitive to her. Her calling is as legit as any man's in that room! I don't know how it would've felt if my mission leader was like "Hey, Sister Bartlett, you don't have to actually show up for your calling from God because I understand that you're a girl." Missionary meetings were never an optional part of being a missionary for any of the guys was it? It certainly wasn't for me! I recommend going about it with something like "Our meetings are held on Wednesdays @ 1900. Is that going to work for you? If not, we will see what we can do and work things out. It is really great to have you on the team. You're service is much needed and appreciated!" Ya know, I honestly think they might be something wrong with the way things are going if you don't feel like you really need her there whether she is comfortable or not.

Edit: Um, sorry Duncan! That sounded way more harsh in type than it did in my head. Eek! I didn't really mean to say something is wrong with the way you're doing things, exactly. Also, I apologize for crappy spelling- I'm still getting used to my phone and this tiny, tiny little screen.

~ Naomi

I do know people who have refused to come to church because they were asked to dress more modestly. I also know a girl ( teenage) who refuses to dress modestly but insists on coming to church. And good for her! Believe it or not she is a pure heart that is the only active convert member in her family. She gets herself to church, youth activities, and ward activities. She shows up in strapless prom dresses sometimes and tank tops other times despite the reprimand, dirty looks, and shut outs. She insists on being around and setting an example of Christlike behavior for all the members of our ward who can use it. I learned something from her actions myself- God's timing. This girl's clothing is NOT appropriate. God's laws and prophets tell us so! BUT she will find her way along her path with Christ and her foundation will be solid because she based her choices on her relationship with Heavenly Father and not on what other church members thought of outfit. I watched her grow spiritually and her clothes slowly become more modest with time. I see that she means well and even understand that what she was raised to view as "your best" was immodest. As she becomes her own woman she is becoming a modest and virtuous woman. She learned it on her own and wants it for herself. She is going to be a strong and remarkable saint.

~ Naomi

Lol! I'm doing it. And I just shared that on Facebook. I am a huge fan of the Doctor - all the way back to the beginning.

I'm bothered that my pants, should I choose to wear them to church, may now appear to be anything other than pants.

Exactly. Exactly how I feel.

like Barry on Storage wars, I can buy fish!

Lol! You TOTALLY miss the point of fishing!

Rose Tyler, through and through.

When I was much younger than I am today, I was prone to making handouts when I would prepare a lesson. There came a point when I asked myself sincerely, "When you receive a handout in a lesson at church, how often do you save it?" My candid response was "Amost never."

Since then I have very rarely provided handouts in a lesson.

I'm a rare bird, I teach Relief Society without props or hand outs. I don't even write on the white board. Not to toot my own horn but we have a new sister that moved into the ward this last week and she approached me yesterday after the lesson. She complimented the lesson and explained that she liked my teaching style, I kept her focused and interested. "That's hard to do," she added with a smile. I just talk when I teach but I walk around, I don't just stand in front of a table the whole time. And my lessons are interactive, I don't just blab dry words while everyone tries to listen. I talk WITH my sisters, not TO them. I try to keep the tone as it would be amongst gathered friends and family - as it should be, IMHO.

Edit to add: I should admit, I do feed the sisters platters of Grandma Lou's fudge. I am sure that gives everyone a jolt of energy and good dose of joy.

I am so sorry for your loss. I pray God blesses all of you and the Gospel continues to offer comfort and peace. My heart goes out to you and my family will keep your family in our prayers.

~ Naomi

In fact, I'd like to advocate for the following:

• I'd like to see as many letters from complaining husbands as we do from complaining wives. Heck... I'd settle for just one.
  
• I'd like to see as much female deprecating humor as we do male.
  
• I'd love to hear just once... "we all know that there will be more men in heaven than women"
  
• A talk about wives refraining from verbally abusing their husbands would be nice.
  
• I'd love to hear a call for repentance from the General Relief Society meeting every once in a while.
  
• An address about the "divine role and nature of brethren in the church" and a pep-talk would be very refreshing.
  

(please recognize some level of TIC here)

Ha ha! I get the humor in this and appreciate it. It made me laugh out loud. At the same time, and seriously, I agree with you on all points.

As a woman in the church, I have never felt less than favored. I hear "cherished", "celestial", "wise", "organized", "patient", "forgiving", etc., etc. What I most often hear about the men is how much they need the women for EVERYTHING. And the men are usually the ones saying this too.

The buck stops with the wife - in a respectful sense, of course. This goes all the way back to Joseph and Emma as we understand them. I am reminded of the word of wisdom and how it came about.

I really do see that if there is gender inequality - it is the women that get more respect and attention for their abilities. I like things just the way they are.

...I see that one must not rely only on Sunday School instruction, but personal study.

Amen, sister!

Oh, BOGS are so much more than rainboots! They are an evidence of evolution. They are snowboots, cowboy boots, rainboots, work boots, fashion boots, gardening, farming and even sneakers rolled into one perfect shoe. They look like a rainboot, the base is hard like a snowboot, the shaft is soft, flexible and completely water proof, the inside fits like a Nike running shoe, and they keep you warm in sub-degree weather. BOGS are wonderful.

We live in a rainforest! Well, seems like it. I did see Jeremy wearing pants (add: jeans actually and a black leather jacket - like always) today. In our neck of the woods, life is weather permitting. Around here, babies know what inclement means and nobody uses umbrellas because people will point and laugh at you. Silly tourists.

I honestly don't know if any women in my ward wore pants today, I didn't see any that I remember. I wore a brown skirt and Bogs. I'm not sure what that says!

Edit to add: it probably says something like "She lives in Oregon." ;D

Ow....just ow...

Really , I've been roughed up by facial scrub before so I can't even imagine...

People, if these women were truly serious about changing the culture within the Church then every last one of them would do something like this. I'm sure then that they would get the attentions of the General Authorities. Tattoos and piercings, all in one fell swoop.

Personally, I don't think there is enough eye shadow, but I could be mistaken.

I think this is a guy.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only thing in this world worth dressing up for if you ask me!

All those who are thankful that they are not in JeremyOrbe-Smith's ward on "Pants Wearing Day" please signify by the usual sign.

WW

Oops, the rep point that I just gave you was an accident. I am on my iphone. I have to tell so that it will not be misunderstood as "the usual sign." I cannot be glad I am NOT in Jeremy's ward - because I AM in Jeremy's ward. :/

I understand grace to be, SIMPLY put, the power of God.

edit to add: I am very much a LDS and I believe in grace, true grace.

Hey, I'm not 12! Haha ha! No, I'm just teasing. I'm 40 but it still feels like 12 some of the time. I hear what you're saying and am grateful for your input. Something I love the most about this place is the diversity. I cherish the opportunity to listen to my elders and be blessed by and through the wisdom. Thank you, sincerely.

~ Naomi