randyj

My feeling is that each of the Apostles have had that personal visitation upon their ordination. This belief comes from Apostle David B. Haight....who after just two months after his call to the Q12 visited our Ward along with Paul H. Dunn and nine other Mission Presidents.  Their visit to our Ward in Independence was quite the surprise!  Needless to say...it was a sacrament mtg unlike any other!!

 

So...Elder Haight as he was beginning to close his talk described the scene in the Temple that day when he was set apart by Pres. Kimball.  He said.."after the beautiful and inspired blessing prounounced upon me by Pres. Kimball....I stood as all the other members of the Quorum took their turn to shake my hand and  to welcome me into the Quorum.  As the brethren were slowly making their way out to go about their various duties...I myself began to head toward the door to leave.  Pres. Kimball  motioned to me to come over to him, which I did.  He asked me if I could stay for an hour or so there in the Temple to ponder over his blessing and my calling as an Apostle.  I told the President that I would love to do that but my family was waiting for me....and had some special activities planned that morning. Then, President Kimball came close to me, cupped my face in his hands...kissed me on the cheek and whispered softly ....David...you need to stay here.  There was different sound to his voice, not one of urgency....but one of excited expectation on  my behalf, as if he knew something special, something sacred was going to happen.  I stayed!"

 

Then Elder Haight bore a very, very powerful testimony of the Savior's resurrection. He bore witness of his divinity. THAT HE LIVES!  I was 20 yrs old at the time...I will never forget it.  I know what he was telling me, without any doubt or ambiguity.

 

That's my story....and I'm sticking to it!

Yep....and of course for those who have visited the Indep. MO. LDS Visitors Center..may or may have not noticed the large doors located on the main level (south side of bldg.) which on the inside have always been covered by floor to ceiling draperies.  They have never been used. Back in the mid to late 70's I asked the Director and other Senior Missionaries there about this and the thought and general consensus has always been that they were incorporated in the design for use in the future Temple complex.  

Robert,  when did you live in Indep?  What Ward were you in?

I have lived in Independence Mo. my entire 58yrs.  I can tell you with certainty that the Church is continually looking for and adding to it's land accuistions here and in the land "round abouts".   Back in the 80's the church made "significant" purchases of land just north of river along 210 highway.  Our Bishop's storehouse is located there on "Kimball Dr."  I know for a fact that during that time a former Indep. Mo. Mission President was called to be a "special liason" to the FP with respect to all things "Indep. Liberty, Far West, AOA etc.   Whether or not there is still someone called to this position I do not know, but I would suspect so.   The Church is accomplishing ALOT under the radar...which is exactly how it should be at this stage of the game. In my opinion.

 

Regarding relationships with the various Restoration groups..COC, Remnant, Restoration branches etc....I believe things have improved significantly over the past decade.  My own observation has been that the Remnant Church and the Restoration Branches are to involved with their own rivalry....that honestly....the LDS church doesn't factor into their thoughts much....at least not like it did back in the day of "Joseph good, Brigham bad".

 

Just my thoughts from the Center Stake!!

Perhaps I may find myself in the minority with this response, but a few of my absolutes when it comes to the Church/Gospel are 1)  The LDS is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth  2) All of the Priesthood keys are found resident within the FP and Qo12 with the President being able to exercise all      3)  Proclamation on the Family by FP/Q12       4)  Proclamation on the Living Christ by the FP/Q12      5) The Scriptures as found in the LDS Church are true and faithful

 

 

....dang it.....I really should learn to read all of the thread before posting....having scrolled up a bit to read I see President Kimball said it best...and I concur completely.

hahaha!  Thanks for that!   It just goes to show what interesting things one might miss by staying home!!   It reminded me of when I was in the Air Force stationed at Hill AFB, Utah in 1980...and my family and I were attending Fast and  Testimony mtg.  Keep in mind this is when Star Wars was going great guns!  My three boys were HUGE fans of course....well, this good sister ...sister mind you....got up right behind us and began a very sweet and heartfelt testimony, then as she was closing she says..."I want you all to know how much I love each and every one of you...and going forward from this day I will be known as, and addressed as OBI WAN Kanobi!!  I kid you not!  That got my boys attention!!   Ya just never know!!

After reading this I feel so much better.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after ALL we can do.

Did you do all YOU could do today?

I am looking at it like this, if you did not put forth your BEST EFFORT, even with the Atonement, because you were just slightly lazy...YOU ARE DOOMED. You don't do your best, and who does, the atonement won't work. AM I reading this wrong?

Might as well go chop off my head and run around like a chicken, because it seems to me EVERYONE is going to HELL, and the atonement is good for nothing...

How do YOU explain this? If we are to take this at face value, I should just quit now, because I didn't DO ALL I COULD DO today, nor yesterday, nor the day before, in fact, there is NO day my entire life I have done ALL I COULD DO, and I dare say neither has anyone else.

I think of it like this....every morning I try both figuratively and literally to "turn toward the light"....and strive to do my best. I think it's in the "striving" each day that we grow and progress. In my mind..to strive doesn't mean that at the end of the day I was perfect. For me it means..at the end of the day when I take account of what I "strived" to do good....as well as those things where I messed up...if I can... in my heart of hearts know that I strived my best in spite of my shortcomings...I will call that day a WIN every time! Like Pres. Hinckley counseled...."just be a little better each day". If we can strive to do that....I believe all will be well at the last day. (yeah...I really like the word "strive" , it's my second favorite word of all time behind "balance" )

A new friend of mine that I met a week ago have found that we share a religious heritage. We have been talking about the Gospel and our relationship with the church. We made a pact. Over the next 6 months, we will prayerfully consider where our derailing with the church took place and figure out what led to these moments. We vary in our stories. Most of you know mine. He is a recovering heroin addict and has been sexually active since he was 17. He is still an Aaronic Priesthood holder.

I don't know if he will be excommunicated because of his actions considering he isn't a Melchezidek Priesthood holder and is not endowed. Any way, after this period of time, we will consider more intimately our own testimonies of the Restoration and possibly pursue a race to the Temple. We know it will take a while. I don't know the details, where the church is concerned, of his journey. I know that mine entails a period of attendence, followed by rebaptism. Following this is a year of activity prior to having all blessings restored and Temple attendence allowed.

If I beat him to the point of Temple worthiness, I will be his escort through the Temple. If he beats me, I foot the bill for an all expenses paid trip to Nauvoo. The way I see it...either way I win albeit somewhat .

Proud of you my brother! I'm sure it will be an interesting journey coming back home...and filled with some "mountain top experiences" as well as sprinkled with some "valley" ones too...just to keep things interesting...and to keep you focused on...and reliant upon the Lord. You both are very lucky to have such friends as each other! Just remember that when you wake up each morning...figuratively and literally..turn toward the light! Eat the elephant a bite at a time! Again....I'm very proud of you....and this exceptionally worthy....and eternally life-changing goal you have set! I have every confidence that you and your friend will be sitting in the Celestial room in the Nauvoo Temple...in the not to distant future! You CAN do it!

My answer?

"Just as in any church there are disagreements on who should lead and some of the teachings. Name me any church that doesn't have a least two churches that started off as one. Why don't we share what we believe and you can pray and ask God about it?"

The simple answer is the best answer.

If only everyone would be satisfied with the "simple answer"!!! My experience has shown me that usually that is not the case. If someone is really excited about the message of the Restoration...try as we might to avoid them..in this age of the internet and social media...you might as well plan on talking about...and explaining certain things that you would rather not have to at that particular time, not because there are no answers....just that it detracts from the gospel message that we have to share. If you choose not to answer their questions at the time....you run the risk of them feeling like you're hiding something etc. It's just different..but in an exciting and challenging way. A friend sent me a picture from a Baptist church sign that read..."dont' pray about the BoM, that's how they get you!" hahaha

I will try to work on that this weekend.

You're a good man!!!!

Wednesday evenings are out for me also. Mid-Week Prayer and Testimony Services at most Restoration Branches.

Okay....lets try for a late AM early PM on a Wednesday. Tell Patrick he has no choice..just be there! hahahaha

It can if you let it. If you focus on the Restored Gospel of the Three Books, and not get sidetracked on issues most people don't know the first thing about, you will do fine. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best explanantion.

So true! I certainly wasn't speaking of the first few discussions....just generally down the road a bit it will come up. It has almost everytime when I have gone out with the missionaries. It's just a fact of life here in Independence. Missionary work here in Independence is unlike anywhere else. It's different.....with very unique challenges. Oh...and btw...it's "the Restored gospel with the FOUR books"!!

Maybe you, me and Patrick could meet up for breakfast or lunch sometime. You all could catch up and you could ask him yourself about the meaning and intent behind the letter. I think you will find that Patrick has changed quite about from the zealous, single, 20 something year-old guy you know in the past (not that he isn't still passionate about the Restored Gospel). Time, age, and expereince has a way of reshaping a man and informing his opinions.

I work nights....I have Tuesdays and Wednesdays off. Anytime Wednesday mornings or afternoon would be perfect for me. Wednesday evenings could work too, but I would have to cancel my Den meeting with my little Bear cubs! Tuesday evenings will not work as I'm at the Temple on Tuesday evenings (tueday late am or early PM would work though). I'm excited...I hope we can work this out!

Maybe you, me and Patrick could meet up for breakfast or lunch sometime. You all could catch up and you could ask him yourself about the meaning and intent behind the letter. I think you will find that Patrick has changed quite about from the zealous, single, 20 something year-old guy you know in the past (not that he isn't still passionate about the Restored Gospel). Time, age, and expereince has a way of reshaping a man and informing his opinions.

Oh...true enough. I've seen him a few times over the years. He's still the same at the core..as far as his feelings and inclinations towards LDS distinctive doctrines. I would love to meet up with him...and you too...maybe we can all three meet up for lunch! If you can contact him....set it up and count me in!!

Since switching over to the Restoration Branches, I have observed that our biggest obstacle to missionary success -besides resources- is not using the Book of Mormon as our primary missionary tool. I make that a point often when dicussing missionary work.

People that reject us because of their confusion in thinking we are all "Mormon" would reject you as well- so I don't see that as the central issue.

Yes....using the BoM should be central to the gospel message. But, once you begin teaching...and you begin to have to explain why some went West....why others didn't.....then why the RLDS changed it's name, whats the difference between the KC Missouri LDS Temple and the RLDS Independence Temple and the Kirtland Temple, then the Nauvoo Temple....why the Restoration Branch movement...then why the JCRB....then why the Remnant church...and on and on...it gets so convoluted and confusing for any potential investigator. Your message gets bogged down in all this other ongoing drama that is found within the Restoration groups...it's just difficult to navigate through is all I'm suggesting.

You are reading a lot more into that then intended. When was the last time you talked to Patrick? From your language, I don't believe it was recently.

Being a supporter of the Seventy and knowing many of the men personally, I can 99.9 % garuantee that this was not an attack on the LDS church, or a rallying cry to come together with our common enemy being "them thar Mormans". The part you reference was more likely referring to the likes of Warren Jeffs,Jefferey Lundgren, Terrill Dalton, and others of their ilk.

I am saddened by your defensive posturing. I wouldn't have shared this event here, if I didn't want my LDS brothers and sisters to share in the event, and have at least one evening were we can celebrate our common heritage in the Restoration of the Gospel.

I am sure that the event will be recorded- anyone desiring a link, just hit me up with a PM.

Oh no...I'm glad you did share it here!! I certainly wasn't defensive with the invitation....I thought that was a wonderful gesture! hahaha....as a matter of fact....I was looking at my calendar to see if I could possibly attend...and it dawned on me....our Stake is having a missionary fireside at the LDS Visitors Center that evening at 7pm. We most certainly can, and should celebrate our common heritage in the gospel! I suppose the part I referenced could very well have been referencing those other individuals as well...but you and I both know full well....that the LDS church is among them as well. Those other individuals do not impact the progress of the missionary efforts of the various Restoration groups the way the LDS does....as far as the LDS outreach...name recognition etc. The general public has, and always will...associate the BoM and Joseph Smith...primarily with the LDS church. This is what I've been told from my Restoration friends is the number one obstacle in their missionary efforts, other than $ and available personel.....is confusion witinin the general public with the LDS church and to the public...you guy's are ALL Mormon or LDS.

I know both both McKays well. P. was just ordained one of the Presidents of Seventy and J. also serves in the Quorum. J. is engaged to a sister from the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickerton)- How's THAT for bridge building?

I do live in Independence- my wife and I gathered here almost one year ago.

I would love to meet you and your wife someday soon...and get to know you better. Take care...thanks for sharing your thoughts on things. I appreciate your willingness to do so. Have a great day my friend!

I know both both McKays well. P. was just ordained one of the Presidents of Seventy and J. also serves in the Quorum. J. is engaged to a sister from the Church of Jesus Christ (Bickerton)- How's THAT for bridge building?

I do live in Independence- my wife and I gathered here almost one year ago.

I know Patrick very well also. He was my next door neighbor for a few years...when we both lived across the street from the Enoch Hill RLDS congregation. As I mentioned....I read the "open letter" from the Restoration Seventy....and having sat many a night in Patrick's living room (when he was single back in the mid 70's) and discussing 'things" with passion and zeal, it is clear to me that letter has a very distinctive " P. McKay wordprint". The following is just a short excerpt from the letter: "Some of the Remnant have remained true to the substance of the gospel message, while others have perverted the gospel with doctrines of men and devils". Now....let's be perfectly honest here.....we both know perfectly well to which group this paragraph is referring. It's the LDS church. I have heard P. McKay use the phrase "doctrines of men and devils" countless times in our visits. However, even if he didn't personally write this letter..he obviously supports its message. You speak of "bridge building"....how is inflammatory language like that helpful in promoting the cause of "bridge building" between our faiths? Short answer is...it's not. Also....my feeling is that this letter isn't so much to "build bridges" more than it is to rally the base of disaffected RLDS under the old tried and true "us versus the Mormons" banner. It always seems as though nothing can help unite the Restoration Branches, JCRB, Remnant churches more than does fighting that old nemesis...the Mormon Church. I'm sorry...but having lived here my entire life.....this is simply the reality of the way things are as far as the general attitude and feeling of those groups regarding the LDS. It is what it is. There is still that high level of animosity because the LDS church is the only one that is progressing in the prophesied powerful way..."the stone cut from the mountain"....and is taking the Restored gospel...the "angel message" as P. McKay always liked to refer to it.....to the world. The various Restoration groups always find it much easier to be united against something (the LDS) rather than united "for" something. I agree with you...this kind of attitude is what needs to change if there is ever to be any significant "bridge building" between our faiths.

The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of LDS and the supporters of the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB) will will having a Joint Worship Service @ the Remnant Gathering Center in Indpendence, MO this Sunday May 5th, 2013

The service will begin @ 6:00 pm with singing.

The speakers will be:

Seventy Hensley Mbanaso of the First Quorum of Restoration Seventy

Seventy Friday Mbaoma of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of LDS

Both of these fine brothers are from Nigeria and offer a uniquely non-American perspective on the Restored Gospel that is very refreshing in its simplicty, but powerful in its truth.

I personally know Bro. Hensley- he is a very good man that carries the Spirit with him in power. He is a great example of the power of humility.

As with any good "Mormon" gathering their will be refreshments served afterwards.

Just out of curiousity.....do you know one of the "Restoration Seventy" named McKay? Also...I just read the "open letter" from the "Restoration Seventy"....and found it fascinating....but significantly inaccurate as to it's description of the Church JSjr restored on April 6th, 1830. Do you live here in Independence, Mo. by chance?

It's nice to see you posting again. I respect and celebrate the variances that define each of the Restoration churches. Perspective has a way of allowing compassion and charity. I plan to attend The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) in Mesa some time soon. I hear wonderful things about them as well.

So share with me if you can....is your position one that believes that all Restoration churches have authority...and that at some point the Lord will cause those groups to join together? I've heard this proposed many times as well over the years...just curious as to your thoughts. In a nutshell..you do not adhere to the "one true church on the face of the earth" position?

I never posted on either. I only read the posts. It was my initial introduction to Community of Christ and Restoration Branches. I remember you and Alan specifically because of the impressions you both made in your posts. You came off as a sincere advocate for LDS perspective. Alan, I believe at the time, was a member of Community of Christ (ex-LDS) but also seemed to have his issues and may have been on his way out. I'm not sure though. I always enjoyed reading what you both had to say.

I appreciate those kind words...I truly do. It's good to be passionate about something...and I figure being passionate about the Restored gospel would be good! hahaha I also appreciate your feelings on things when you say " I am one that is tired of the walls of division that we have created among our various organizations." We do need to focus more on our common ground and do and say things that build faith. I know by heart...every single LDS/RLDS/CoC/Remnant talking point...the ole "point counter point" routine....which is hardly ever, if ever...productive. We know where our differences lie. Having said that....if we're having a serious and thoughtful dialogue on church history of the period in question....then those involved need to understand that it can be at times a rough and tumble exercise. Again...thank you for your kind words and I'm relieved and thankful that you thoughtfully considered those things I had to offer. I look forward to visiting with you more in the near future!

I attended Valley of the Sun Restoration Branch here in Phoenix a few years ago. They were very welcoming to me as an LDS member and often asked me LDS perspectives on theology and the Book of Mormon. I love the fact that that specific Branch uses the Restored Covenant Edition of the Book of Mormon. It is probably my favorite edition on my bookshelf. One of their members gave me a free copy.

So, what is your current "Restoration church" status?

I only vaguely remember you both when I used to lurk at the Centerplace board and very old CoC board (run by David Francis) about 10 years ago.

okay.....only vaguely...but you remember both of our last names after 10yrs? Would I remember you ya think...if I knew your name? PM me....I would love to make the connection....so far it's only half connected!! and that my friend is NO FAIR...tilt tilt tilt!