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TAO

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Posts posted by TAO

  1. Not to put too fine a point on it, but behind all the citations of Wittgenstein is a variation on the old 70s idea: "If it feels good, do it."

     

    I dunno, I've never read Wittgenstein, sorry to say =/.  (Just so you know ahead of time, me and mfb have somewhat different views, though similar, so we may not be consistent with each other)

     

    In any case, trusting anything takes an act of faith, and faith is a gut action.  In other words, following your feelings.  Think about it, why do you trust your friends?  Because you've observed them?  But do you know they will never do anything 'bad'?  Not at all.  You just trust your gut instinct.  And (most likely) you won't be happy with yourself if you follow someone elses instinct, without consulting your own first.  In other words, not 'if it feels good, do it', but rather 'if it feels right, do it'.  That's a bit different from the 70s motto.

     

    Anyways... I don't think it is wrong to trust our feelings that fell right.  After all, that's why we trust our senses.  That's why we trust the spirit.  Because it feels right.  Others may use it to trust things we would not trust.  But regardless, that's their choice to make.  We can still disagree with them though, and act in our own interests, even if it contradicts theirs.'

     

    Meh... I dunno if I explained that well.  =/.  Tell me if I did an okay job.

  2. I'm not even sure myself that it's a good idea to listen to anything I say. I know what I've experienced, and I believe I have learned some valuable things, but I don't know how far beyond myself they apply.

     

    Don't worry about it, nobody here bites, and a good discussion is a great thing (provided it doesn't get contentious =p).  I think we are all in the same boat - we all know what we have experience, but don't know what others have, and so we try our best to help each other, but fail, fail indeed.  Or perhaps we succeed.  Only God can tell us, I guess =).

  3. Sure, everything is contingent and tentative. but I reject the notion that whatever "works" for us individually is good and useful. I find that profoundly amoral.

     

    What is good?  The answer is that it depends on who you ask.  It's based on your perspective.  What we consider 'universally good' really has another definition.  It means 'good in God's perspective'. This is one example of how the conflict between objective morality and relative perspective is resolved.  God has a perspective.  And if we consider it higher than our own, that sort of resolves the problem.

     

    And isn't the idea that we choose what 'works' for us the idea behind agency?  That we will rise or fall to the kingdom that most suits us - to the kingdom we are most willing to 'work' for, that we are most willing to do things for?  You have to understand, I'm not saying that whatever 'works' is right - right is a matter of perspective.  But I'm saying whatever works is justified - that means that in order to reserve that for ourselves, we have to be willing to let others do the same thing, even when their path is different from ours.  This is what I mean by 'what works'.  It is what we are willing to live by.

  4. I think that's the mistake: religious beliefs are not always non-falsifiable. Mormonism rests in part on the historicity of its sacred texts, and that is falsifiable; if it were not, we wouldn't have apologetic attempts to place the Book of Mormon in an American setting, or try to explain why smelted steel isn't anachronistic, or try to show that NHM is a "hit" related to the Book of Mormon description of Nahom.

     

    The problem I see with your approach is that you see no difference between such falsifiable claims and unfalsifiable matters of faith.

     

    Let me ask you something.  Can you prove to me your senses work accurately?  If no, why do you trust them?

     

    It's because they make your life have value.  That's why we all trust them.

     

    If I want to believe that science doesn't fully and completely accurately portray the world, because believing such makes my life have value, wouldn't I be justified for the same reason?

     

    I think I would be.

     

    It all comes down to what we 'want' to believe in.  You have several options

    1)  You can believe the religious perspective has an error

    2)  You can believe the scientific perspective has an error

    3)  You can believe that what is called a conflict is not really a conflict.

     

    You have to choose the one which you will be willing to live with.  Choose wisely.  Choose the choice you will be willing to hold to.  Choose the choice that holds the most value.  Consider each.  But find which one you are willing to live by.

     

    For me, I have chosen to live the religious path, because it is more valuable to me.  If science conflict, I am not worried, I know that with God, things will work out in the end, regardless of how things seem.

     

    That's not the choice for everyone though.  Different people might cringe at my choice, at my willingness to admit I don't know things, but I'm willing to choose nonetheless.  But, I guess it's my choice, and I'm willing to live by it =p.  Hopefully I won't regret it.

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  5. It is also good to mention that none of us can actually prove or provide evidence as to what physical reality actually 'is' (due to the circular use of our senses to prove things).  What that means is that when you get down to the grit of things 'meaning' and 'utility' are really what we decide upon.  In other words, we believe in all things because we desire to.  And there is nothing wrong with that.

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  6. My question is this: Do you think it would be wrong for the brethren to listen to complainers and agitators and ask the Lord for guidance? Or do you believe that, if revelation comes, it will come from the Lord, regardless of any complaints or agitation?

     

    Eh, I hope this isn't contentions... =0

     

    Anyways, revelation is revelation, and it's not for me to say when and when not the Lord gives it.  He works in marvelous ways, which we do not expect sometimes.  So I'll leave that up to him to determine when to give it, considering his awesomeness.

     

    On the other hand, the Lord (at least in what I've seen in him) does not truly like agitation.  He prefers those who are patient and meek and willing to wait and accept his will.  That's the main problem with the agitators.  They are too strong minded.  When Africans asked for the Priesthood, from what I hear, they wrote letters, not demanding, but asking the First Presidency to ask.  They got letters back saying it wasn't the time yet.  But they asked, they didn't demand.  This I think is a spirit the Lord likes.  They were patient and meek and willing to wait and accept the Lord's will, even if it was hard for them, or not what they wanted.  And I think the Lord loved that, and loved them.

     

    In any case yeah, I just wish they wouldn't agitate.  Ask, yes, that is fine, that is good.  But to push, is not leaving room for the Lord to say no.  We need to leave room for him to say no.  Or else we will end up with things we won't like as much.

  7. Tao, I am concerned not for my own sake but because I have seen women drop out of church or look upon themselves as inherently not as valuable to others and to God.  I am involved in this discussion for the same reason that I am involved in FairMormon where we try to help others get past faith crisis due to problems with history and doctrine...none of which have caused a faith crisis for me.  I see it as part of my being a member, it is a way for me to support other members in their efforts to "perfect" themselves as Saints.

     

    It is not a discussion that everyone needs to be involved in though.

     

     

    That's a good answer =).

  8. Eh, I have a question, and I hope it doesn't sound too rude.  The question, I guess, is why are we worried about this?

     

    I don't wish to offend, however, I feel that there are so many other more important things in the gospel that we really need to focus on right now.  This is the time of the hastening of the gospel.  What are we fighting over?

     

    Best of Wishes,

    And sorry if that's a bit harsh on my end,

    -TAO

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  9. Yeah, TV can be a bit filthy.  You can find a few good shows though that work out nicely though.  As Tacenda said, Discovery, BYU, Science (and sometimes military) tend to be safe.  Hulu is also nice as well for stuff, since you can choose what you want to watch.

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  10. Kinda long, but...

     

    http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12?lang=eng

     

     23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

     24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

     25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

     26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

     27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

     28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

     29 And I, Moroni, having heard these words, was comforted, and said: O Lord, thy righteous will be done, for I know that thou workest unto the children of men according to their faith;

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  11. My only issue with what you've said above is that you do not look beyond home and self to the bigger picture that is the continuing desolation of God's creation. The world is much bigger when you can look beyond self, home and church. I believe that is what we are being called to recognise.

     

    Ah, that probably has to do with my weakness.  I've always had trouble doing the smaller things, and so I tend to try and focus on them.  The bigger thing, well, to me, it's always sorta been there, I guess XD.  But in order to get there, I have to work on the small things I can effect, so the big things will work.  My weaknesses are kinda weird =p.

  12. A wise man once said to me, 'contention and revelation are not compatible'.  I don't live that perfectly, but I am quite convinced that he was correct.  If anything, the thing that i need most out of my life is contention, and the thing I need most in my life is a desire to live the gospel as God would have me live it.  I have yet to accomplish that.  But, I will always keep trying.

     

    For me, I guess it means shutting off the message boards, the news, and other topics which get me irritated.  And trying better to cooperate with my family.  Being available, and doing things if they are asked of me.  I think that this is more of how God would have me live my life, even if it's not perfect.  But I am much more happy living it this way indeed.  Obeying God truly does bring happiness, even if it doesn't appear to in the short run of things =p.

     

    I don't think we can ever have too much mercy or charity.  I don't think we can have too much gratitude or forgiveness.  I don't think we can have too much love or kindness.  And yet, I don't think there is such a thing as trying too hard to live that, but not succeeding.

     

    It's our job to live it.  We might fail at it, but at least we are trying.  =)

     

    Best of Wishes,

    -TAO

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  13. The Lord begged them to change?

     

    And yes, I agree.  Personal spiritual experiences are tough to convey.

     

    The Lord is begging them to change.  Actually, he is begging all of us to change.  He wants us to change so much.  That's how much he loves us.  The Lord is a surprisingly humble God.  Or so I have found, from the way he communicates with me.  Perhaps he's showing me that I need to be more humble.  Leading by example, teaching me lessons.  I'm quite sure he is a good teacher.  In fact, I know it.  =p

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  14. That He does approve.

     

     

    Mmm... that isn't the answer I got.  The answer I got was that despite the fact that they love each other, gender has an eternal significance, and that the reason the Lord opposes such marriages is because it stops them in eternities somehow.  I don't know anything more than that, other than that it will prevent them from participating in some future happiness which the Lord wished them to have.  And so he begged them to change.  I felt that the Lord looked upon mercifully those who had the weakness, but lived everything else right, but that nonetheless, they needed to change, so that they could be happy in the end.

     

    Alas, I don't think I can fully portray what the Spirit says to me about things.  It's kind of a personal matter, the Spirit, as it doesn't really talk to me much in words, but in feelings.  And even then, I can't always tell.

     

    But yeah.  That's what I experienced when I listened to the Spirit in the temple.  Tis a bit wierd I suppose.  Eternal signficance doesn't really fit the word, I guess... it's more like eternal necessity, or something.  Even that doesn't fit exactly right.  Meh.

  15. We discussed that a bit earlier in the thread...

     

    I did.  But I'm not the prophet so my answer is not relevant to the church as a whole.

     

    And, as others have stated here, I apparently received an incorrect answer.   :)

     

    I didn't read the thread =p.  What answer did you receive?

  16. It doesn't have to be perfectly the same. Whether you fall 5280 ft or 5281 ft  it is still going to hurt when you hit the ground. In terms of mental illness whether you hallucinate about flying pigs or flying elephants it is still a visual hallucination. Whether you think you are Nepolean or Jesus the Christ it is still a delusion of grandeur. 

     

    Well then your definition doesn't fit.  You said things need to be 'the same'.  I just showed you they wouldn't be.  Try and find a better definition for insanity.

  17. The universe doesn't have to be perfect to effect change. The more variables the more changes have to occur for an event to happen.

     

    A  good example is that in the multitude of times high school chemists have burned hydrogen in the presence of oxygen. They always get water. If they expect to get miniture flying pink elephants. Then they need to talk to me in my professional capacity.  :)

     

    I don't see how this addresses my comment, to be honest.  I was pointing out that you can never have a 'perfectly the same' experiment.  And so, under the definition you suggested, 'insanity' would not exist (because no experiment is ever exactly the same).

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