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Posts posted by Woody

  1. The Warren Parrish quotation is used to establish that Joseph Smith told someone he worked on the BofA translation by revelation. In spite of the fact that Warren Parrish was misinterpreting many things, the fact remains that he did report that.

    There is precedent. Acts 5 explains the Jewish senate's adoption of Gamaliel's counsel (to not kill the disciples) as evidence the Christians were endorsed by heaven, when it's obvious that the senate believed the opposite.

  2. It reminds me of Floyd Weston's story of the five roomates who set out to find the true church. They attended an independent church of some kind, where the preacher would make a point then point to the drummer who'd go thru his drums with a fancy drum roll, and Glassy looked at Floyd with a look that said, "This is religion?"

  3. It seems odd to me that the guy grabbed her phone like that. He had just stepped around the corner and grabbed, after seeing it for like one second. Robbery usually involves a bit of study, a few seconds at least... It almost looks staged, except this appears to be security cam footage. Maybe they knew each other? Brother & sister? Friends? And he is following her? As he's walking away, he's not worried about escaping, he's just examining the phone. I wonder if this is a robbery, or is it just a friend grabbing and peeking to see what she was texting. He underestimated what her response would be. She put him in his place pretty conclusively. I really don't understand what this is.

    I notice that several (six) priests and Levites walked right on by the unfortunate character rolling on the ground.

  4. Joseph grew up on what was then the American frontier. People spoke with frequent use of habitual phrases and expressions. Being familiar with my grandparents and others, who go back almost to the US Civil War, I think I recognize one of these: "they all cried with one voice, saying..." This expression, in current language, would be 'Here's the kind of things they were saying, they were pretty much all in agreement.'

  5. On 12/8/2016 at 7:08 AM, RevTestament said:

    I will not defend BYs apparent statements that Eden is in America. He believed JS taught this, I believe him to be plain wrong.

    Hmmm, checking on this, it seems that we are a little weak on having any direct record that Joseph Smith said this. There are a number of people who remembered him teaching it tho. It is however very clear that Adam-ondi-Ahman is in Missouri; and Adam probably didn't travel far after he was expelled from the garden.

    On 12/8/2016 at 7:08 AM, RevTestament said:

    If you read Moses, you will find it referring to one of the rivers flowing east of Assyria. There is just no way Assyria can be placed in the Americas.

    Moses was summarizing earlier records. These rivers (Pison, Gihon - which went around Ethiopia, Hiddekel - identified as the Tigris, but it runs thru the middle of ancient Assyria, & Euphrates) were known and named by people before the Flood. When the Ark landed it was in a completely different part of the globe and everything was covered in mud. Their familiar places weren't there. So they started naming stuff fresh, and used some of the same old names for new lands and rivers and things, just the way we do today (lots of towns named Paris for instance) So, to hunt for these rivers in Mesopotamia is going to be an exercise in futility. There's no four rivers there or anywhere else that originate from one. The geography doesn't remotely match the description.

    On 12/8/2016 at 7:08 AM, RevTestament said:

    The Adam-ondi-Ahman mentioned in the D&C is different than the original one in a valley, and I believe is so named because that is where Michael will come to sit as prophesied in Daniel, and begin the gathering of the tribes.

    Uh, why would it be a different place? Once you accept that there was a man Adam, who will return, you are outside the zone of current science. There's no need to assume a valley then isn't a plain now. Whole continent has been shoved, mountains rumpled up, layers tilted, rivers rearranged, lots & lots of changes.

  6. There is something in this chapter that has intrigued me ever since I first read it many years ago.


    Mosiah 5

    1. And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them.

    2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.
    3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.
    4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.
    5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.

    6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.
    7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

    8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
    9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.
    10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

    11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts.
    12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.

    13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?

    14 And again, doth a man take an *** which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called.

    15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

  7. Then there's Junia, Romans 16:7. Female Apostle?

    First, the word αποστολος in Greek manuscripts simply means 'one sent', ie. an emmisary, an ambassador, a deputy; ie. a missionary. Αποστολος is used for Jesus' Twelve, but also for various others, some of which can be shown to have very probably not been of that rank.

    Timothy for example is called an apostle in 1Thes. 2:6 (see 1:1) but a brother and a διακονον in 3:2 (translated as brother and minister in the KJ) and just a brother in 2Cor. 1:1 (thought by most scholars to be much later than 1Thessalonians), so it seems more likely this is just a variety of expressions rather than Timothy's downward progress in callings.

    Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:14, but Clement of Alexandria names him as one of the Seventy, and Hippolytus' list of the 70 has two men named Barnabas, both bishops. It doesn't mention that either one of them became an Apostle, as it does for Matthias, who was inducted into the Twelve to replace Judas Iscariot.

    Jesus' brother James is called an apostle in Galatians 1:19, but not in Hippolytus' list.

    Paul calls himself an apostle but there's no indication he was one of the Twelve. In fact, there is no record of the Twelve ever calling another replacement as they did with Barnabas. In Which Church Is Right? Mark E. Peterson suggested that Paul was such a replacement, but all he could cite was a vacancy (Acts 12:2) and Paul being called and set apart as a missionary (Acts 13:1). Surely the disciples at Antioch didn't give the Quorum of the Twelve a new member, none of the others in the quorum even being present?!

    Second, there's that phrase "of note among the apostles", Romans 16:7. Andronicaus and Junia were Paul's kin and fellow prisoners. There's no way to tell from the Greek grammar whether they were remarkable among the apostles, or just noticed by them; nor whether they were "of note among" the Twelve or just the missionaries in that area? Acts 16:2 has a similar statement about Timothy – the brethren of Lystria and Iconium remarked on him (or maybe it was actually one of Timothy's parents they noticed).

    Junia being Paul's fellow prisoner says to me that most likely, Junia was among his missionary companions, but there's no way to determine this, or if Junia was simply also in the prison where Paul found himself on that occasion.

    Third, it's kinda unlikely that Junia was a even a woman. Some ancient manuscripts of Romans 16 have the name (Ιουνίαν) with an acute accent ( / ) over the 2nd iota which is the female form of the name; some have instead a circumflex (^) over the alpha, which is the male form. Problem is, all of these manuscripts were written after about AD 900 – manuscripts written previous to that were in capital letters without accents. So all these accents are later insertions, by editors who weren't there. The difference is only a small mark anyway, easy for a copyist to mistake either way.

    Latin translations added to the confusion, since the name is Roman and has various masculine/feminine nuances, none of which give us any information about the situation.

    The words "remarkable", "kinsmen" and "fellowprisoners" are masculine, but the presence of masculine Andronicus mandates that, whether Junia be male or female.

    There are two sources that might not derive from Romans and/or accent marks: Epiphanius (AD 350±) mentions this same Junias as a bishop in Syria with a masculine pronoun. And the Synaxarium, a group of books of lives of saints from around AD 1000, says that Junia the apostle was a man of the tribe of Judah.

    Simple logic tells us that there was no remarkable member of the Twelve named Junia. Such a remarkable Apostle would be mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, with accompanying apocrypha, traditions, icons, and chapels named after him/her, but this is the one and only isolated mention.

    We must also note that not only was Junia (notable among/noticed by) the (Apostles/missionaries), but Andronicus was too - and there's just as much record of Apostle Andronicus as there is of Apostle Junia, ie. zero.


  8. Regarding the possibility of Phoebe being a deacon, there's another caveat. My bishop's dad was in New Zealand on a mission right after the war, and he found a branch way off in some isolated place, where the branch prez had been valiantly maintaining things for several years, while most of the men were away to the war. He had the sister missionaries blessing the sacrament.

    So this illustrates the possibility that Phoebe was ordained a deacon in the priesthood, but it wasn't right. In Joseph Smith's day, an African-American was ordained to the priesthood before the Prophet learned it was incorrect.

  9. 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

    There are elements of the endowment scattered in dozens of cultures, through all the centuries, bits and pieces of the endowment are everywhere.

    Military and police dudes wear these funny hats, which are essentially a bag over the top of the head with a band around the edge; and a flat piece of cardboard or something inside. (Then they add a little brim to keep the sun out of their eyes.)

  10. Makes our Inauguration ceremony look kinda pale in comparison, but we'll try to like it.

    There's a fun old Peter Seller's movie, "Prisoner of Zenda", where the coronation ceremony is burlesqued. Deep psychological study. Well worth hunting for.

    Now, when the Pope came here to Denver the Denver Post did a two page spread on his clothes. Hat, coat, pants, etc. The text said he's the only one allowed to wear white, which was a surprise to me... I think they meant the only Catholic priest allowed to. But there at his wrists was a little patch of cloth peeking out, with the caption "special garments under his other clothing."

  11. If I understand things correctly, the ancient language of the human family, passed down from Adam, had a written form that was ideographic - symbols represented ideas, sort of like this: <symbol><represent><idea>. The Chinese written language still works that way. There was apparently some mechanism that kept things static.

    But as languages diverged, people were pronouncing words differently. So when the Sofronians came into contact with the long-lost Kulonians, the Kulonians kept saying "gluk meefruh boojoo" which meant 'hello, we want to buy some blankets'. So they could write it down once they figured out what it meant, same symbols as always: <hello><want><buy><blankets>. But the sounds were interesting and they wanted to do some stenography (different from steganography). So they invented that. "Gl" was the start of a word that meant 'fish' and "k" was the start of a word that meant 'sky' so they could write <fish><sky> and it represesnted the sounds 'gluk'. It was the most natural thing to just draw a circle around the symbols <fish><sky> to signal these are just pronunciation instructions.

    If I understand right, Egyptian hieroglyphics worked like this - mostly ideographs, with some phonetics for foreign words, names mostly. But the phonetics were so handy that people just started using them more and more.

    This leads us to the pronunciation of all these wierd names in Romans 16. The name Cenchrea for instance: the Greek texts show Κεγχρεαις. I'm guessing Paul's letter to the Romans actually had ΚΕΓΧΡΕΑΙΣ, because lower case (which the scholars call miniscules) came along later. One theory is that these people were writing on papyrus, which has a rough surface, lots of fibers; hard to make sweet little curves and stuff, easier to just pull the pen, can make a fairly straight line. So most of their letters were mostly straight lines. Once they got to understand how to get skins really smooth they could make their pens really swish around and make curved letters, which were sweeter looking and easier on the eye. Except that when I look at these old papyrus fragments with John 13:5 on 'em, I see curves but what do I know.

    Anyway, if we take these symbols as pronunciation instructions, we have

    Κ   k as in kangaroo
    ε   eh as in epic (?)
    γ   g as in google
    χ   ch as in loch
    ρ   r as in rover
    ε   eh as in epic (?)
    α   ah as in awesome
    ι   ee as in peep
    ς   s as in same

    I reckon all these allocations are tentative. Take for instance the e... The Greeks colonized the shores all around the Mediterranean  and Mediterranean languages generally have 5 or 6 vowels: ah, ei, ee, oh, oo. Spanish has 6, altho you ask any Mexican kid how many vowels and he'll say "cinco". They have 5 letters to represent 6 vowels - ah, ei, eh, ee, oh, oo. The letter e does double duty. And my point is, most people don't even realize this. They use for instance the word "eres" which means 'thou art' and in that word you have two e's, pronounced differently - the first is eh, the 2nd is ei. Ha! So how do we know the Greeks didn't have similar funny business in their language?

    But with the above allocations the name Cenchrea might be pronounced keg-chreh-ah-ees. By some wierd pathway the English translators came up with Cenchrea. There's a tradition that the gamma (γ) would be pronounced N in front of another consonant (ha! see? funny business), but how we know that I have no idea.

    Some people love all these little quirks in languages but I hate 'em. I like Brigham Young's ideal: one sound for each symbol and one symbol for each sound, no exceptions, no changes allowed.

    Whenever some genius like Brigham Young or King Mosiah sits down to straighten the system out, it lasts for about 40 years then it evolves away from the good solution because people fear to offend Queen Beulah and so they all pronounce their th's as f's because she could only say 'em that way.

    <Grampa expound mode /off>

  12. On the ordainwomen.org website's timeline, there is the statement "Phoebe is a deacon and Junia is an apostle in the early Christian church." Romans 16 is given as the origin of this.

    Verse 1 mentions Phoebe with the word διακονον, but we should not blithely assume Paul meant the priesthood office. In the Restoration, the Lord has revealed that the lowest office in the lower priesthood is to be called the deacon, but the Greek word basically means a waiter or attendant or other menial worker. Paul's meaning might be either one.

    We don't have to look very far to prove this. The previous chapter of Romans, verse 8, use the same word διακονον applied to Jesus. I don't think it's likely he was ever a priesthood deacon in the church; he was the one who organized the church. Of 55 translations I checked on Bible Gateway, not one of these translators thought Jesus was a deacon.


  13. I like to discuss the scriptures with people. I've found that digging into a specific chapter can be a very valuable exercise.

    Romans 16, the last chapter of the epistle, has some interesting puzzles and touches upon several issues that have come up recently in threads here.

    The text is online in a thousand places but for convenience I'll post the King James here. What the hey, it's 500 words:

    Romans 16

    1. I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
    2. That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

    3. Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
    4. Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

    5. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
    6. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
    7. Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
    8. Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
    9. Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
    10. Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
    11. Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
    12. Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
    13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
    14. Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
    15. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
    16. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

    17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
    18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

    19. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
    20. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    21. Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

    22. I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

    23. Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
    24. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

    Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.


    I will be pointing out some things, but I'll give others a chance first


  14. You can find a wide variety of music on YouTube. Some of it is definitely under copyright, the idea is you listen/watch and they run ads pasteurize. So the folks who posted the music are getting paid for every view, I don't know how much. Some is just under a general copyright statement of YT's. But I think there's not much of a problem if you grab the soundtrack to help your brother get thru rehab. A lot of artists work independently and detest lawyers, and in fact love it if you grab a copy of their stuff for non-commercial use, they consider it free publicity.

    There are maybe a half-dozen websites that will grab a YT soundtrack for you, for instance http://convert2mp3.net/en/

    http://www.youtube-mp3.org/ used to work but hasn't for a while.

    I assume by now you've figured out how to get an mp3 file into the mp3 player once you lay your hands on an mp3 file.

  15. These questions are good ones, but I request that you ask each new interesting question in a separate thread. Go for it. With related title.

    Consider future generations. Suppose someone's researching the 3 days of darkness and would like to dig into the points raised here... but they have to wind and wind thru miles of discussion on many topics. It's steganography, essentially.

  16. On 12/23/2016 at 1:38 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

    ...that day was Sunday-Monday, Jewish 17 Tishrei (which lasted from sundown to sundown) early in the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) - Jewish law prohibits hard work on such a day (chol hamo'ed)).  The Jewish calendar floats with respect to the solar Christian calendar, and Joseph returned as ordered to the same hill each successive year on Sept 22, until permitted to take the plates in 1827.  Each year was on a different Jewish date:

    Sept 22, 1824 =  29 Elul 5585  (Eve of Feast of Trumpets, New Year)

    Sept 22, 1825 = 10 Tishrei 5586  (Day of Atonement, tenth of the High Holy Days)

    Sept 22, 1826 = 20 Elul 5586  (Eve of Sabbath)

    Sept 22, 1827 = 1 Tishrei 5588  (Sabbath and Feast of Trumpets, New Year), Joseph hiding the plates in a hollow log, and retrieving them ten days later on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the holiest day of the Jewish year, and a day on which God protects his people from harm.

    This looks like numerology to me. Martin Gardner wrote a few pieces on this in his Scientific American column back in the 50's / 60's. He showed, subtly, the fallacy of it. In brief, batches of numbers always show various patterns and a numerologist exploits them to scam people who don't realize this out of their money.

    If you sort thru the rabbis' traditions to find gems, you'll have to wade thru a lot of silly foo foo. The reason they blow those trumpets, you'll recall, is to drown out the sound of the devil telling God our sins, when he goes up to heaven for his annual Personal Priesthood Interview. Wouldn't it be better if they just shut up and listened to John the Baptist in the wilderness shouting "Repent"? Then the devil'd have naught to report. Blowing the horns, that equates to a coverup of sins. Moroni's never gonna be OK with that.

    He did indeed choose that day of the year. But was it to match Jewish tradition (which Nephi avoided passing on to his people) or was it just not practical to expect Joseph Smith to meet with him on the 4th of July? Parade, marching bands, speeches, big dinner, lots of family, fireworks. Late September, now, that's a quiet time in Wayne County NY. The birds have all gone south for the winter and you can speak and be heard, and the Christmas shopping madness hasn't started yet.

  17. On 11/30/2016 at 4:28 PM, pogi said:

    (quoting 2 Timothy 2:23 from the NIV:

    Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

    I think there are occasions when a measured poke into a stupid argument is OK. I refer you to Matt. 22:15-46. There I find five short debates, 3 of which began as attempts to start a foolish argument, and two started by Jesus himself. In each case, Jesus gave an answer which went right to the heart of the matter and put them to silence.

    v15+  Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
    v23+  in the resurrection whose wife shall she be?
    v32+  have ye not read...?
    v36+  which is the great commandment in the law?
    v42+  What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?

    I believe this was because he knew the doctrines, having studied the scriptures deeply, and inquired, and been educated into the realities of the universe by revelation. He could see into their hearts, that they were trying to trap him; but the direct answer avoided their traps. Also, many of the people there were honest in wanting to know the truth, and the direct answer met that need.

    The NT writers present them as a brilliant evasions/escapes... but I think they were just humble, direct answers. Since we are sposed to follow him, I guess it makes sense to engage in conversations and try to help others understand.

    BTW, most people don't understand what he said about the 7 brothers. And the other questions mostly.

  18. On 12/2/2016 at 3:02 PM, rongo said:

    I don't thing that David Whitmer really knew anything about the translation process. His statements that Joseph read off a parchment or words that appeared in the seer stone represent his assumption about how it worked, but I don't think he knew firsthand, and i don't think Joseph told him that.


    It's seems clear to me that David Whitmer was describing what Joseph told him he saw in the Urim & Thummim. However, the disconnect comes when we assume this was how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon.

    Joseph TOLD us how he translated; it's in DC 9. But studying it out in your mind gets you absolutely nowhere launching into a totally unknown language.

    I think he asked in prayer what it meant, then he looked in the U&T and the angel wrote something out for him - the first symbol and the English equivalent - and held it in his view. Repeat for the 2nd symbol, & the third... but he has to convert the stream of concepts/ideas into English sentences, which is why the early text reads as it does. He has to figure out what's intended. Then he gets a confirmation that this is right. After a couple of pages he's finding many symbols he's learned and doesn't need the 'dictionary lookup' as much.

    David said the plates weren't even in the room when Joseph dictated. Well, what was he dictating when the plates weren't in the room, the Book of Mormon translation or revelations he received? Whitmer was a bitter old man when he wrote this and there are a couple of other similar bogons in the same essay [Address to All Believers]. I think he had some scruples against outright lying but he could mix things up a little and let the audience get the wrong impression so as to discredit Joseph. Read it carefully, it's pretty obvious.

    Can you encode whole paragraphs into one small symbol? Sure you can. You can encode the entire Library of Congress, the entire Internet, in one symbol - ﬗ - there, that looks like a good symbol for it.

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