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Posts posted by Vance

  1. 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

    It's odd that you don't even know the basic details of the situation, like her filing for divorce, and yet have made such high mighty statements about the situation.

    Maybe you should just mind your own business on this one.

    So, I missed one line it the OP.  That doesn't negate my points in any way.  And since you aren't engaging with my points, I will just ignore you snide remark.

  2. 1 hour ago, Calm said:

    And sometimes that means walking away from what were in reality childish dreams and choices, such as an unwed mother wisely choosing to give a desired baby up for adoption when unable to care for them herself rather than raise the child in traumatic surroundings, lacking proper care. 

    Sorry, but an unwed mother didn't make a covenant before God, angels, family and community to cleave to a spouse and none else.

  3. 1 hour ago, Calm said:

    Why do you go to sex first and apparently only as a reason for filing for divorce?

    Well, let's see, he came out as gay, and you said


    Tell her she has to stay in a marriage with a man who doesn’t love her in the way she apparently thought he did.

    Sounds to me like it is YOU that went to sex first. Does he love her any less or differently just because he came out of the closet?

    1 hour ago, Calm said:

    Is having sex with someone not your spouse the only way someone can break a covenant in your view?

    Absolutely not, and no where have I expressed nor implied it. 

  4. 1 hour ago, Calm said:

    A man covenanted to God to sacrifice the first thing that came out his door if he won the battle to save Israel. 

    It was his only child, his daughter; not his dog. 

    Is it healthy to keep that covenant?

    He did by the way.  Man of integrity even if his daughter had to die so he could keep his word. Nothing in the scripture indicates God was pleased. 

    That doesn't sound like a covenant to me.  More like an unrighteous oath. What did Jesus say about oaths?

    Marriage, especially in the Temple, is a covenant with God. But then, you know that.

  5. 17 minutes ago, Calm said:

    Tell that to his wife. Tell her she has to stay in a marriage with a man who doesn’t love her in the way she apparently thought he did. Tell her she once again has no choice in the matter because a man is making that decision on her choices for her. 

    So she is the one filing for divorce?  So it is all about sex with her? 

    If he has not broken his covenants, then she has no business dissolving their marriage.

  6. 21 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

    Part of wisdom and growth is recognizing when one has made irrational, unsustainable, and unhealthy covenants and promises that lead to self-destructive thoughts and behaviors and and destabilize mental health.

    So, making and keeping covenants with God are unhealthy?

    Making and keeping covenants with God leads to self-destructive thoughts and behaviors?

    Making and keeping covenants with God leads to destabilized mental health?

    You need to contact the prophet and let him know.


    Part of adulthood is putting away such childish things and making restitution as best as one is able for previous mistakes and unkept-yet-unrealistic promises.

    Part of adulthood is taking responsibility for you commitments and actions and sacrificing your desires for the good of others.


    Part of compassion is learning to avoid judgment and condemnation, and instead learn to forgive others and one’s self when all of the above happen. 

    When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 


    Part of compassion is making righteous judgments and condemnations when appropriate.


    ALL: Posters who want to rail at the people involved or bash the church over two individuals' choices will have their posts removed or be suspended.

  7. 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

    I think this insistence depends on the premise that any righteous man and woman can have a successful marriage. This premise has, since it's been taught in church, caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering.

    No, integrity does not always mean staying together. Integrity on the part of both parties can result in divorce. 

    Personally, I have no desire to be in a marriage where either my spouse or I are staying in it because we are afraid of divorce. What a miserable way to live. I want to know we stay because we want to stay. 

    Part of "integrity" is the maintenance of the covenants and promises one has made.

  8. 3 hours ago, JulieM said:

    It absolutely did not need to be said, if it wasn’t relevant to this specific topic (Ed Smart’s situation).

    Maybe start a new thread if you believe that it needs “to be said”.

    It needed to be said.  If Smart is leaving his marriage to somehow satisfy his own sexual proclivities, then his soul is in danger for God will hold him accountable.

    The fact that he has willingly and openly elevated his "gay"ness to be a major portion of his identity, clearly indicates which direction those proclivities point, if indeed this whole sordid and sad affair is driven by them.


  9. 2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

    What’s ironic is your focus entirely on the gay spouse without mentioning any of the straight spouse’s behaviors which may have contributed to the divorce itself.

    What is ironic is YOUR focus entirely on the gay part of my statement and totally ignoring the non gay portion. 

    2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

    The woman I married was mentally and emotionally abusive to both myself and children; I’m not making this up, it was substantiated by Department of Child and Family Services and my court ordered therapists during our divorce process. The last two years before I left her she became physical (throwing things at me, hitting me with her fists, breaking down our bathroom door after I locked myself inside to try to get away from her, and ultimately threatening me with a kitchen knife as she was screaming at me, which was the last straw and caused me to leave and never go back). 

    I endured 8 years of emotional hell at her hand.... and the reason I endured that long was the fear and guilt I took upon myself that if our marriage failed, it would be MY fault because I was attracted to men. I endured her abuse because a) my self-loathing self thought I deserved it, and b) I thought God would hold me accountable if I didn’t make my marriage work. 

    After years of my dad having witnessed her behavior, at the time I told my parents I had finally left my wife, my own extremely-devout LDS and very anti-divorce father told me that there is no way he would have lasted 6 months, let alone 8 years.

    I made my own mistakes and wasn’t perfect, but neither was I ever emotionally or physically abusive.  I also was open to and did actively participate in individual and couples therapy; my ex-wife refused to engage with either, and instead blamed me for all the problems in our marriage. 

    Like I said, Divorcing is not consistent with a healthy relationship.

    2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

    My experience is clearly not Ed and Lois Smart’s.... but I wanted to share because many here are acting as if the gay spouse in these scenarios is the culpable sinner. Marriage and divorce are never black and white. 

    ANY one engaging in a sexual relations outside of God's approved bonds of marriage between a man and a woman IS THE CULPABLE SINNER!.

  10. 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

    It absolutely can be.  Not all marriages are healthy. Many relationships can be healthy outside marriage, and there are married people who interact more healthily when they end their marriage. 

    Divorce is always associated with unhappiness.  It is either the cause or the result.  So no, divorcing is NOT consistent with a healthy relationship.

  11. 17 hours ago, california boy said:

    D I V O R C E

    Do you remember our discussion on Oaks Talk Doesn't Explain The Scripture on Remarriage and these words of Christ found in Matthew 5"32


    We had quite a discussion about how through revelation from God, modern prophets allow divorce in the Church.  According to this article in the Deseret News, the divorce rate among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is between 40-45%

    Now let's look at some of the responses from our posters

    Now lets see what the attitudes towards divorce is when the husband comes out as gay.



    All of this outrage against divorce.  Perhaps it is justified.  I just want to know where all this outrage was when everyone was defending divorce n the previous thread?  Do people only start condemning divorce when the reason for that divorce is the husband is gay?  And why focus on this one individual when 40-45% of the members of the Church are getting divorced?  Isn't this one gay guy pretty insignificant compared to the real problem?  Or perhaps it is just easier to condemn situations that you personally will never find yourself in.


    Being "gay" is NOT a valid excuse to get a divorce.  Unrepentantly engaging in homosexual acts IS a valid reason for the non homosexual spouse to file for divorce.

    Unless Smart is, or is planning on, engaging in sexual acts with ANY one other than his wife, or if his wife is being unfaithful, there is no valid reason for their marriage to be dissolved.

  12. 19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

    What does it profit a man, to judge another's best efforts to do right? Also, being gay is about more than sex.

    I said NOTHING about "being gay"!!! Nor did I announce any judgment on any specific person for any specific act.

    That being said, ANY sexual activity outside of God's lawful arrangement of marriage between a man and a woman IS sin.

    It has been that way from the beginning, and isn't going to change EVER!!


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