california boy

At some point, shouldn't there be an executive review in heaven to revaluate the Plan of Salvation and come up with a few better options?? I mean what percentage of the human population have had a successful experience on earth? It seems like a lot of work for such little reward.

Not sure I want to get in the middle of all of this, but to me, the biggest problem with relying on the existence of the Gold Plates based on 11 witnesses is that if you are willing to rely on witnesses to determine the truth of anything, then you have to also accept every other single claim of events that have witnesses testifying of the truthfulness of that event. For me, there are a LOT of stories, confirmed by witnesses that I really doubt are true.

Yeah I didn't get the sarcasm. Emoji's sometimes confuse me on their intent. But thanks for clarification. I do hope that I am helpful in presenting a point of view that only a gay former member can sometimes give.

I am sorry you feel that way. I try to present my thoughts from a different perspective, one that I understand is not shared by many on this board. I don't do it out of malice, but in hopes that members will understand that not everyone sees things from their perspective.

I am not sure how to write this in a way that won't offend you, because, well everything I write seems to offend you. But I don't really care what your or Hamba's, or the Church's or anyone else that has a theorie on why gay people really aren't gay, it is just all made up. This is like me writing paragraph after paragraph, post after post, about how you really don't love your wife and that the only reason you got married is because some social construct made you think you should get married. You can write as long of post that you want telling me and all those other gay couples that have found someone to be in their life that they love, cherish and want to spend their whole lives with why you think they should not be together. I love my partner. He is every bit a part of EVERYTHING that I hold dear to in this life. He is kind, loves everyone and is loved by my family and everyone that I know. We have a relationship that is far deeper and more meaningful than I ever thought possible. We have been together for 13 years, and it still seems like a honeymoon. Time passes quickly and I know I will be with him for the rest of my life. If being in love with him and sharing this world experience with him means that we are both going to whatever doom you think God will send us to, then I am perfectly fine and at peace with that. NOTHING you could write or anyone else for that matter will shake my love and devotion to him. NOTHING. I wrestled with God for many years. I believed in what Church leaders told me I should do. Then I found out it was all made up. Just their own prejudicial beliefs that they though should be imposed upon me. I believe completely that God has lead me on this path. I can't describe the feeling of peace I have with God. I may not be where SMAC or Hamba thinks I should be, but I fully believe that I am on the path where God wants me to be. And in the end, the only opinion that matters is God's.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. And I agree with everything you stated. But I also think that the Church brings on a lot of that misunderstanding upon itself by the way it reacts and deals with LGBT issues. The way it handled the lighting of the Y is a good example. Handled differently, it could have been an opportunity to clarify its position to clear up some of that misunderstanding. But often Church leadership perpetuates the very things that are causing the negative feelings against the Church. As long as the Church continues to handle those issues as they have in the past, I don't see that perception of the Church changing. And maybe that is ok with the leadership that wants to continue on that path. If so, then I expect, and they should expect similar results.

So what do you think the message should be to the LGBT community? What message does the Church want to convey to the world about the LGBT community? Or is the message they are currently sending exactly how the Church wants to be viewed and is not misunderstood at all. Social reaction is exactly the reaction they were hoping to achieve.

Always the attacker that fails to try and understand what I was really trying to say. You go guy.

Yea, exactly. I think most will agree that because of their heavy handed reaction to the Y lighting, the Church got painted as continuing its intolerance and adversary relationship with the LGBT community. It perpetuated that image whether that was the intent or not. And maybe that was their intention. To draw the line deeper in the sand. If that was the intent, then mission accomplished. If however their intent was to improve the relationship with the LGBT community, they could have used it as an opportunity to allow the Y lighting. That would have shown to the LGBT students and the LGBT community that there is room in the Church and at BYU for them. They could have even issued a press release clarifying their position. Something like "While the Church is firmly committed to marriage between only one man and one woman, and that gender is eternal, there is still room for all of God's children in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, even members of the LGBT community." Do you see that if that was their intent, that would have been a much more positive message, while still being clear about maintaining Church teachings? It is an up hill battle TBH. It is interesting, this subject came up a few days ago with a good straight friend that knew I used to be a member. He started in about how horrible the Church is to the gay community and that I must have hated being a part of it. I told him that yes, there are parts about the Church that I think are unhealthy if you are gay, but there are parts that I also really liked about the Church. I told him about how positive my mission experience was and how much I learned from it. I also told him that some of my kids are still active in the Church and for them, it works. They are straight and have young kids. It is giving their family a strong foundation of right and wrong. In the next couple of years as those kids get a little older, they will have to wrestle with what the Church teaches and what they know from personal experience with their grandfather and my partner who they love. My friend then told me about an employee he had who was Mormon and how good of worker he was and never said anything negative about gays. But I had to agree with him that if he had an LGBT child, the Mormon Church is probably not the place to raise that LGBT child. Sorry, that is how I feel. I don't think I am alone.

Sorry it has taken me a little time to get back to you. I have been traveling and away from my computer. I did however want to respond. I totally agree that the Church can and does define how it treats the LGBT community. And yes, I agree that the LGBT flag does represent a community that the Church does not support EVERYTHING that community might be engaged in. I don't support everything either. But I do recognize that the LGBT flag represents the community. It represents not being ashamed for being different. It represents a struggle to have the same constitutional rights that all Americans have. It represents numerous charity and humanitarian efforts the community participates in. It represents tolerance for those that have a different point of view. It represents the God given agency that has been given to all of us to live our lives the way we each believe is how we should live our lives. It represents family and friends. It represents being able to love my partner and have a quality of life with him. Just like the American flag represents this country, which not all can I agree with, when someone burns an American flag, it probably doesn't mean that they hate EVERYTHING about America, but for those that are looking on, the message they get is one of hatred towards America and all that it stands for. But by not allowing colored flashlights to light up the Y one night a year during gay pride, that also sends a message to the world, to members, to BYU students, and to the LGBT community. Most people reacted to that message like the burning of an American flag. It is a message of being one of zero tolerance for the LGBT community. It reinforced in a big way the Churches often hostile relationship with the LGBT community. And it reinforces a message of intolerance within the Church membership whether intentional or not. I certainly did not read a single article praising BYU for it's tolerance by not allowing the Y lighting. In fact every article I read brought up all of the hostile actions BYU and the Church have taken against the LGBT community. So whether that was the intent or not, that was the message received. And if that IS the message BYU wanted to send, then yes, they were successful. By sending that kind of message, and so many that have come before, it defines the Church's relationship with the LGBT community much more than writing a letter supporting fair housing and employment. Is that really so hard to understand?

So do the brethren only view the rainbow colors as being solely about sex?

Oh I agree with you. Maybe you can tell me why BYU/the Church had such problems with students looking for just some acknowledgment that they are part of BYU/the Church by lightning up the Y with flash lights but somehow that was a line in the sand

Why does the church sign these letters? I seriously want to know. Honestly it seems so fake, like they are trying to pretend about the LGBT community two weeks after taking all the LGBT pamphlets out of the BYU newspaper. As far as I can tell their excuse came down to an objection of a drag name in a small ad on the very back of a resource piece for LGBT students This is the same university/church that freaked out over colored lights on the Y that simply acknowledged that there are LGBT students at BYU that would like to be visible

No iris not the kids that are the problem From the article “The actual grooming that’s happening is on the other side, where all these people are grooming their kids to hate other people because of how they dress and who they love,” Watcher said. “As parents, we’re trying to raise our kids to be good, respectful human beings for everyone around them.”

It really saddens me to hear how judgmental members of the Church have become. Instead of joining with these LGBT students in helping them feel like they are a part of the University and the Church, they are doing all they can to isolate them and make them fearful for being there. i wish I could send them all to a Lady Gaga concert to let them know that it is ok to be different and that there are a whole slew of people out there that love ❤️ them as they are.

No. As long as it was peaceful. Are there groups you would prohibit from shining flashlights? Especially given the legal agreement on the land that was purchased

Historically yes. BYU students have always been able to climb up to the Y. I used to climb up there regularly with friends when I went there. My parents did as well. No permits or special approval was ever required. Never been an issue until a bunch of LGBT advocates decided to bring colored lights to show support for LGBT students and thought up the most peaceful way of doing that I can imagine what I would really like to understand is why does it matter to you or BYU Honestly the bigger issue BUU makes of this peaceful protest the more anti LGBT they look. At some point other schools are not going to want to have anything to do with BYU. They are bringing this animosity themselves over literally nothing of importance.

We are not talking about the laws governing other pieces of federal property. We ARE talking about Y mountain. It is required by law to have public access Not sure how much cleared that can be. I would love to hear BYU make the court case that people carrying flashlights at night was unreasonable access

When the land was purchased from the federal government, one of the conditions required public access to that land Under the bill, BYU would have to pay for an appraisal of the land and the price that results from that evaluation. The school would also have to guarantee public access to the mountain. BYU nor the Provo police had grounds to arrest anyone

I don't really think you can't put the Church on some kind of pedestal when it comes to recruiting children to accept its beliefs. I grew up when the Church promised all the kids in the ward to invite their friends to go swimming at the community pool. If they brought a friend, their admission and their friends admission to the public pool would be paid for by the missionaries. I was about 9 at the time. We would meet at the church every Saturday with a mob full of kids. The missionaries would present a missionary lesson designed to recruit the kids into the Church and then take them all swimming as a reward for sitting through the lesson. The Church also had a baseball program where they would organize kids into teams, have a recruitment lesson and then allow them to play baseball. They baptized a lot of pre teen kids using both of those methods. I don't remember a single on staying active after the free swim/baseball games quit.

Do you think the teachers behavior was acceptable???

Not surprised. Given the way the Church has treated gays, I rarely come across a LGBT person who has a good opinion of the Church n

Thank you for pointing out the exception. There are probably a few others. But the point is pretty clear.

Some yell "don't protect the homos". Some whisper their distain. Some start threads on this sit that regularly demean and marginalize the LGBT community. And some stand quietly by and never confront those that constantly attack the LGBT community. We have all seen the statement by Church leaders. Great guidance. Does anyone here really believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really treats the LGBT community the way Church leaders have asked? Does BYU treat the LGBT community the way the Church leaders have asked? I have seen this referenced at least twice in this thread that was designed to spur outrage against the LGBT community. My takeaway is the more TBM you are, the less one is likely to follow that counsel. I know this is a bit harsh, but sometimes the weight of the constant demonizing and degrading the LGBT community gets pretty heavy to bear. I also know this post will probably do very little to change those entrenched attitudes.

Sadly not a single TBM upvoted this idea. That says a LOT.