annewandering

Let me state something about the 800 pound gorilla in the room, because some are not aware of this, I think.

I do not particularly subscribe to the validity of this argument, but I think it should be stated. The underlying assumptions here include the conclusion that if Joseph "got the endowment from the Masons" then they are not inspired, nor do they come "from God"

So the assumption that Joseph did not "get the endowment from the Masons" must be proven for the endowment to be "from God"

I will let Wade decide if this is a valid subject for discussion here, or if it should be on another thread, but I just wanted to clearly state the perceived need to prove the ancient origin of the endowment.

I have always felt that the masons had gotten their rituals from the ancient ones. In fact that is what they claim and I see no reason to disbelieve them. In fact dont they believe that they are responsible to keep the rituals for a time when God will have need of them again in His temples? Now I got this from my aunt whos husband was active in the masons and they were not LDS so take it for what its worth.

Problem with daniken is he makes stuff up as he goes. Try this link for a bit of information on him. http://www.skepdic.com/vondanik.html That site has some interesting articles on other ideas as well such as crop circles. http://www.skepdic.com/cropcirc.html oddly enough. lol.

Now I do not discount every odd claim but some have much more logical explanations that aliens.

I have to say this topic makes me feel very uncomfortable. Is it acceptable to discuss this beyond outside of temple rituals?

The violent part kinda got me too. I guess I suffered brain damage because I just dont remember that part. Or even the bizarre part. Hmmm obviously my memory is even worse than I had thought.

I see you have been on facebook today.

I am sorry that gay marriage was brought into this because they are not the same thing at all. The government is supposed to leave religion alone. How is denying people the right to practice polygamy as part of their religious practice doing that?

I am deeply offended jaybear that you brush off the persecution of polygamous families as if they deserved their treatment. NO one deserves the treatment they received. Not then or now.

My husband's great grandfather lost a baby girl to the trek west. She died and was buried in the frozen ground at Winters Quarters. She was not alone. Over 350 people died there. All because of religious persecution. I do not understand how people could do that to other people. She was a baby and they killed her by forcing her from her home in the winter.

Do people persecute us today? Ask LDS kids. Mine have some stories to tell. Teachers who mocked them in the classroom. Kids who picked it up and continued it and why not? They knew the teachers wouldn't punish them for it.

Have you ever gone to an OB doctor and had them look down their noses at you because you have 'too many' kids? Have you ever been treated badly at work because it didn't matter? They were saved and you are not?

I have to add that it seems to me that most people are nicer. Lately it seems that a lot of prejudice is toward all Christianity. Frankly I am getting sick and tired of politics with all the rabid haters of Christianity let alone LDS people. .

Oh and its 22% wont vote for a Mormon. Oddly higher in Democrats. 18% Republicans 19% Independant and 27% Democrat. I am inclined to think its the anti Christianity people added to anti Mormon who make that difference. lol In other words they think Mormons are Christian and hate them for that. Irony huh.

There are numbers available on how many died in Illinois and on the trek west. I doubt there are numbers on how many have died since from what would be termed hate crimes or by raiding families to arrest polygamous men.

There were many more than 21 who died as a result of the mobs and trek west to escape them. Nearly every family had members who were killed or died.

I find a 1. 2. 3. order to be misleading. The two important ones, God and Family are too intertwined to be separated.

After the saints left Nauvoo and went to the Salt Lake Valley I would guess the worst persecution came when the government sent in sheriffs to break up polygamous families. They were not content to prevent the practice. They wanted to jail the husbands and leave the wives and children unprotected. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to have to hide your family from sudden raids in the night to protect them? They were told that their wives were not theirs and that their children were illegitimate. Many husbands spent years in jail away from their families because they would not deny them. Not only the husbands but wives were jailed. Sometimes to draw the husbands out so they could be jailed.

Even if you did not agree with their choices how hard a heart did it take to take fathers from their children leaving them destitute?

I do not have any ancestors who were involved in this madness but my heart just breaks at the thought.

Today when I see news stories about polygamous families being rounded up and children ripped from their families it just makes me cringe. It seems so much like a witch hunt to me. Give gay people the right to marry but for heavens sake dont let people have families if its not like the norm.

Last two I watched are Tony Hillerman movies from Netflix. I enjoy them quite a bit and like the author. The actors were great. I have read reviews that did not like the music background but I thought it was perfect. The two were from American Masterpiece Theatre. If you have never read a Tony Hillerman book I recommend them. Very insightful material.

I thought traffic directors were mimes already. Some not so gifted but still....

Mine is obvious. I have a lazy attitude to life! Ok now I have to find a real one. hmmmm.

edited. Now I have a real avatar. This is me on my FFXI game. ^^

I like it. Even though I was a girl it was always important to me to follow my brothers example. Later on, many many years later, my brother told me that he went on a mission because of me so I guess it works both ways.

I say use whats available and is plentiful enough for the entire ward. Oh and that wont have things in it that might trigger allergies if possible.

As many of us have made clear in this forum, the candidate's positions on political issues are more critical (at least to us) than his religion, per se.

If we take, say, Perry, ostensibly a "good EV candidate in the hole", why would an evangelical voter choose him over a Saint if the following were true about each candidate:

• Parental Rights
  
  • Saint◄► Supports parents' right to raise their children with little or no governmental interference.
    
  • Perry◄► Mandates little girls be vaccinated with the potentially dangerous Gardasil®
    
  • EV Voter prefers parental rights be respected
    

  [*]Illegal immigrants

  • Saint ◄► Supports deportation and rejects "in-state" tuition for illegal immigrants to state colleges
    
  • Perry◄► Pushes for in-state tuition
    
  • EV Voter rejects amnesty for illegal aliens
    

  [*]Economics

  • Saint◄► Keynesian economics is a proven failure over nearly a century of trials
    
  • Perry◄► Government is a source of "job creation", and wants more government involvement in economics
    
  • EV Voter wants smaller, less intrusive government
    

In a reverse situation, a Saint would choose the candidate who better reflects his values and preferences. Why should an evangelical voter select the candidate who does not represent his values as well, but who shares his religious preference?

Why, in this instance, would a pastor reject outright, based solely on his religion, a man who might be a better fit? (I'm not claiming Romney meets that criterion—I do not believe he does—but, based on the wording of the statement, we can conclude that a "perfect" candidate who is LDS would be condemned on the same grounds.)

People can make any choice they desire. That's the nature of the secret ballot and republics. But it is completely unreasonable for one characteristic (his religion in this case, but his sex or his race might fill the same role) of a candidate to override the totality of the political positions any candidate must, of necessity espouse.

Lehi

I find this to be very offensive. Please substitute your name for saint because those are YOUR political stances not the Church's or all LDS people for that matter. Even saying that all EV voters have those stands is not fair. Put a name to EV voter not a generic. No wonder the world thinks we all march lockstep when people like this poster do this so regularly. Its just not right or correct either.

Arg messed up first post quote. sorry about that.

• reposted this correctly. sorry.
  

I have diabetes and do not fast. I wish I could but it makes me very dizzy and not feeling so good. When I was in college I tried fasting but it made me so sick my friends, nonmembers, told me that God knows I want to but He isnt going to like me doing something that was, obviously, not good for me.

It was and is good advice. Keeping an attitude of fasting sounds like a very good idea.

thank you very much. I just listened to that byu education week talk. It was so nice to hear him teach again. He is such a kind knowledgeable man and a real pleasure to know.

oh my gosh! the photos do not look like him but i went ahead and played a video and it is him! Thank you so much!

I have heard countless people testify to lasting impact from seminary and insitute teachers. Most recently, our former young women's president, who has overcome a lot of adversity and life experience, has told our family at length about a Brother Reed who was her seminary teacher when she was in high school. Our families talk deep doctrine a lot over dinner, and it is obvious what an impact Brother Reed had and continues to have on her. Even when we have polite disagreements with Brother Reed's take on speculative doctrinal questions (which default to her take), I am impressed with the impact he left on her. His impact is a good one to have, and it has seen her through to where she needed to be in her life.

I hope seminary and institute teachers get glimpses sometimes of how influential and impactful they are ---- it's a wonderful and scary prospect, and almost all of them do a wonderful job of it.

I am astounded how much more I know about the church than people who have not taken seminary or institute classes. Now no way am I a scholar but I have always been so grateful for what they taught me. Never in my life have I ever been able to even try excuse my actions by saying I didnt know better either. If a person didnt have that chance then its time to take some classes now. Its never too late.

He had an office at BYU which I know because I went to visit him there. He did not teach at that time because I remember thinking it was sad since he was such a great teacher. I do not know if William O. is the right man. It doesnt sound right. Did you find a biography or a photo of him?

lol not the same one. by far. oh my gosh! i am laughing so hard but i have to say Bishop Nelson is nothing like that man. He may be able to sing but it is not something i remember about him!

How would I go about finding out what happened to the Institute director at the UofIdaho about 1970? I just got to wondering lately. He went to BYU to help with the Church Educational system but after that I dont know anything. Of course his name was William Nelson so that isnt a good name to google. lol.

Maybe its to do with getting older but I remember the teachers who had so much effect in my life. Bro. Gail Oakey and Bishop Nelson are two that I owe so much to.

He wasn't just a Scout leader; he was a ward Young Men president. That makes him part of the ward council and very much a leader in the ward. It is part of the ecclesiastical structure in the ward.

But I agree with you about the ambiguity of the headline.

Since when do Ward Young Men's Presidents get large city headlines? They dont even get headlines in local papers. Yes the headline is misleading. Deliberately I am sure. Anything to grab the antimormons gloating eyes.

One of them might have been named Dan.

Or Son of Dan? lol