Sevenbak
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Posts posted by Sevenbak
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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:
"While the paintings are exposed to the elements, they are protected by overhanging rock, which means they remain in better condition than other rock art found in the Amazon."
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/amazon-rainforest-ice-age-paintings-scli-intl/index.html
Have you seen all the pics? Wide ones too? There are 8 miles of these cliffs, that are full of the art panels. And while some naturally have overhangs, others don't. You can literally see the water marks, and the still clear imagery.
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1 hour ago, katherine the great said:
If these type of ancient pigments were made in even remotely the same way as modern paint I might agree with you. These are mineral paints. They actually become a part of the rock that they are painted on.
Obviously the Behr paint reference was in jest, but pointing out how paints and finishes fade. I actually am one that tends to give the ancients a lot of credit they don't normally get from scientific circles. They knew and did a lot more than we typically attribute to them. But I have seen a ton of faded red ochre rock art (My graduate thesis was about documenting So. Utah rock art) dating to much later time periods and milder climates than these in Columbia, which are largely pristine. It needs further study. They look too good to be 12000 years old, exposed in the rainforest.
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24 minutes ago, katherine the great said:
Believe what you like.
If Behr came out with a 12000 year guarantee on an exterior paint, I'd be a believer. As it is, I think they do offer a 15 year Warranty. 😉
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16 minutes ago, katherine the great said:
A worked iron artifact will fall apart over time but mineral based pigments are very durable. They aren’t datable though.
Relative dating based on the fossil record that we have (using index fossils) is probably the only way to really date this. At least that I know of. Sometimes an animal thought to be extinct by such and such a time frame shows up unexpectedly much later. But the odds of all of these creatures in these paintings being wrong are probably pretty slim.Sorry, no sale here. Even with today's highly refined and fortified paints, things out in the open - houses, bridges, etc, MUST be repainted on a regular basis every 10-20 years. 12000 years out in the open in wet and extreme conditions looking clear and sharp is just improbable. I've seen red ochre paint on glyphs in the southwest, where it's dry and enclosed, and have been dated to 1000 years ago using fire hearth charcoal and lithic fragments, that have faded compared to more recent rock art.
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The article states that the age determination was made because those animals didn't exist here prior to accepted theories. Talk about the cart driving the (ahem) horse.
What I would like to know is how does such a massive and broad collection of red ochre paint that is out in the open in a humid tropical rainforest, on exposed clif walls, with runoff etc, survive intact for 12000 years. My son served his mission in the amazon rainforest just south of there. When it rains, as it does often, it's torrential deluge! Something doesn't pass the smell test...
'Some drawings depict long-extinct animals including the mastodon, palaeolama, giant sloths and Ice Age horses, which helped with the dating process, the Guardian reported.'
“We started seeing animals that are now extinct,” team leader and Exeter University archaeology professor José Iriarte told the Guardian. “The pictures are so natural and so well-made that we have few doubts that you’re looking at a horse, for example. The [Ice Age] horse had a wild, heavy face. It’s so detailed, we can even see the horsehair. It’s fascinating.” https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/thousands-of-ice-age-paintings-discovered-in-amazon-rainforest/
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If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that you think Lehi left Jerusalem after it was sacked? Why do you not think it happened before Nebuchadnezzar? There were 2 invasions from him, in 597 BC and 587 BC. Lehi left around 600 BC. In fact, Jacob sees in vision the destruction of Jerusalem and its inhabitants being carried away captive, after they were in the promised land, years later. (2 Nephi 6:8)
Does the references you mentioned happen during the first of 2nd siege from Babylon? If it was in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, then Jerusalem still had a king (albeit appointed by Nebekenezer). I'm guessing the sacking you're referring to happened in 587, long after Lehi was gone. JMHO
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10 minutes ago, Sandra Day OTanner said:
I am pleased that Senator Lee compared Captain Moroni to a great US president.
We are admonished to seek good men to be our leaders, not just good leaders...
D&C 98:
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.-
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16 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:
He especially hits home with that passage about Captain Moroni Picking up the banner of liberty and then said "Ouch! my bone spurs are acting up....you know I think that Ammonite - who should consider himself lucky we even let him into our Nephite lands - can probably hold this for me while I watch from a distance and work the markets/banks for millions of dollars"
Classic Captain Moroni right there
Millions of Senines perhaps?
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6 minutes ago, Duncan said:I'm pretty certain Captain Moroni wasn't ever on an Access Hollywood bus getting taped
Or paid off hookers...
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Agreed! In addition to crossing a huge line, I think Mike Lee forgot about this passage... "Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men."
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So this just happened...
"To my Mormon friends, my Latter-day Saint friends, think of him as Captain Moroni," Lee said at the Latter-day Saints for Trump event. Around 436,000 LDS members live in Arizona.
"He seeks not power, but to pull it down. He seeks not the praise of the world or the fake news, but he seeks the wellbeing and the peace of the American people," Lee said of Trump.-
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2 hours ago, telnetd said:
I read this in a General Conference talk.
I am grateful for the testimony of our prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley. On behalf
of all members throughout the world, I express gratitude that he chose to follow the
inspiration of the Lord and asked us to read the Book of Mormon. We have been abundantly
blessed by his inspired counsel.Do we have a record of other Presidents before Gordon Hinckley following the inspiration
of the Lord and asking members to read the Book of Mormon?Gale
Pretty much every prophet and apostle since the beginning of the restoration... starting here:
“Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”
-Joseph Smith - Introduction page in the BoM
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On 4/1/2020 at 2:25 AM, Scott Lloyd said:
I have a son who will be graduating next year and is raring to go. I hope things will have settled down by then to the point that he won't be hindered.
We're still waiting on word about my son in Peru. He's still on lockdown and in the remotest mission in the Peruvian amazon, so we're hoping and praying. He's been out 20 months, and was planning to go to school this fall, so he's done as soon as he gets home.
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And upon my house shall it begin...
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My son is in Peru. The country has closed its borders. Sunday the missionaries were all put on a 15 day lockdown, can only go out on rare occasions if absolutely needed.
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15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:
So general conference will convene in a few weeks, and I’m looking forward to what will transpire in commemoration of the First Vision to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
My wife said she heard one of the BYU Education Week speakers — I think it was one of the Twelve — say that there will be a live remote of President Russell M. Nelson speaking to the conference from the Sacred Grove. This, of course, would be reminiscent of what happened in April 1980, when we observed the sesquicentennial of the Church and President Spencer W. Kimball spoke to the conference in a live remote from the Peter Whitmer farmhouse in Fayette, New York. That is still fresh in my mind, though it occurred 40 years ago now.
Has anyone here heard of anything else that will be happening at this conference?
I hope and expect that two of my very favorite hymns will be sung or performed: “Oh How Lovely Was the Morning” and, of course, “Praise to the Man.”
Scott, Pres. Nelson recorded something in the S.G. in the fall, supposedly for this conference, so I don't think whatever he's going to do will be live. I could be wrong.
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1 minute ago, Duncan said:
in all likelihood they got that idea from this document, most interesting!
I would assume so as well.
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That is the only account I have seen. I believe Darren Southam used that same narrative in his Reign of Judges kickstarter campaign, beginning with the last battle of Moroni.
https://www.facebook.com/reignofjudgesmovie/videos/441861286476111/?v=441861286476111
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With all the seemingly fresh accusation threads of a “coverup” about the seer stone, I think it’s important to provide some historical context and references to church publications and correlated materials that reference said seer stones, head in hat, etc. When the seer stone is talked about openly in the publication for primary kids, and in the Ensign, by multiple apostles, and a future prophet, so many decades ago, I just don't see such a nefarious coverup as some here do. While the references aren't prolific, they certainly were not hidden. Personally, I've known about them as long as I can remember. I’ll post a few here, anyone else feel free to do the same.
Children's Friend, 1974 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng
"which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone."
Ensign, 1977 https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god.p41
...the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone....
“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.”
Ensign, 1993 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament.p13?lang=eng
"The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:
Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light;"
Ensign, 1997 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng
"The Prophet Joseph alone knew the full process, and he was deliberately reluctant to describe details. We take passing notice of the words of David Whitmer, Joseph Knight, and Martin Harris, who were observers, not translators. David Whitmer indicated that as the Prophet used the divine instrumentalities provided to help him..."
...Martin Harris related of the seer stone: “Sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written"....
..."If by means of these divine instrumentalities the Prophet was seeing ancient words rendered in English and then dictating, he was not necessarily and constantly scrutinizing the characters on the plates—the usual translation process of going back and forth between pondering an ancient text and providing a modern rendering.
The revelatory process apparently did not require the Prophet to become expert in the ancient language. The constancy of revelation was more crucial than the constant presence of opened plates, which, by instruction, were to be kept from the view of unauthorized eyes anyway.
While the use of divine instrumentalities might also account for the rapid rate of translation, the Prophet sometimes may have used a less mechanical procedure...
...We simply do not know the details.Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said Joseph Smith told him that he used the Urim and Thummim when he was inexperienced at translation but that later he did not need it, which was the case in Joseph’s translation of many verses of the Bible (see Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, 11 Aug. 1874, 498–99).
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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:
This is a new article by Dr. Dan Peterson that appears in LDS Living magazine as of two days ago. This is NOT the same legend as the one that made the Aztecs think that Cortes might be a god, or if it is the same legend, it's one told by different people entirely, and this time it was Pizarro who got mistaken for a returning god. Dr. Peterson references a 2015 article on the topic that appeared in BYU Studies.
How Peruvian Myths About a God Appearing to the People Echo Events in the Book of Mormon
“There came from a southern direction a white man of great stature, who, by his aspect and presence, called forth great veneration and obedience. This man who thus appeared had great power, insomuch that he could change plains into mountains, and great hills into valleys, and make water flow out of stones. As soon as such power was beheld, the people called him the Maker of created things, the Prince of all things, Father of the Sun. For they say that he performed other wonders, giving life to men and animals, so that by his hand marvelous great benefits were conferred on the people. ... In many places he gave orders to men how they should live, and he spoke lovingly to them ... admonishing them that they should do good ... and that they should be loving and charitable to all. In most parts he is generally called Ticiviracocha. ... (And) that wherever (he) ... came and there were sick, he healed them, and where there were blind he gave them sight by only uttering words.”
I find this interesting as I have a son serving his mission in Peru, and the additional legends sound very much like they could be out of 3rd Nephi. However, to be on honest, I think he could have taken these accounts in Peru straight from a New Era article in 1978, over 40 years ago. I’m not seeing anything new.
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On 6/15/2019 at 4:26 PM, JAHS said:
So some say it happened on another planet the scriptures seem to say it happened here in the garden of Eden. Therefore it must be figurative.
According to the prophets and correlated church curriculum, prior to the fall, the earth was very close to Kolob, and we don't know how much the earth changed while/coming to its current location after the fall. So, perhaps both statements are correct about another planet and the garden of eden...
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On 6/5/2019 at 10:02 AM, Metis_LDS said:
This is not about me being hard on the members of the Church. But if you think it is feel free to say so. So the one thing I have found radioactive to discuss in class or out of class is where will our perfected bodies come from? All that I know points to God not being a magician. The perfected bodies will not appear out of nowhere. Things also seem to point to a limited capacity of supply, as in multiple resurrections. So the main point is why do members get excited (not in a good way) when I start to ask about where the bodies are going to come from?
One of my favorite stories out of church history lore on this subject is the Zeke Johnson story. Whether it’s true or not is questionable, but he is certainly earnest and passionate in his telling of it.
http://emp.byui.edu/huffr/Plan of Salvation/Resurrection/Zeke Johnson experience.pdf
If Ezekiel's vision of the valley of dry bones is anything more than just allegorical, then perhaps Zeke’s experience is worth consideration.
At the very least, food for thought.
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I found this interesting in light of conventional science proclaiming no metallurgy in ancient America. Thoughts?
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/54996
”When the first skeletal remains were unearthed, there were no grave goods found in the burial space. Complete excavation revealed that the youth was indeed buried with objects, a dozen used tools. It just took them a while to find them because they were all placed in one location: on his chest with his hands on top of them. They were tools, most of them bronze — a fine-toothed saw, an axe, several knives, a chisel — and had originally been bundled in fabric as well. Some fragments of that textile have survived.”
Analysis carried out by Toronto University’s Branden Rizzuto showed that the tools were made of a rare type of bronze – copper alloy with arsenic, rather than more common tin.
[Dig leader Prof. Miłosz] Giersz said: “The alloy with arsenic guaranteed that these were really hard tools that could be used for a variety of farm and carving jobs.”
“Even stronger evidence that the young man was a professional metallurgist is the inclusion of slag in the burial. A byproduct of the smelting of ore, slag isn’t found at random in Wari tombs. Archaeologists believe it was a deliberate burial meant to symbolize his trade.”
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31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:
This is a good perspective, but I think it was fairly easy to detect the sham nature of this protest even without being a news videographer on the ground.
Afterthought: I suppose I have one thing to thank them for, however. Now in retirement and thus not having to be in the Conference Center, I was able to enjoy the priesthood session last night at home in my comfies rather than putting on a suit and going over to the stake center. And my wife and daughter joined me for at least half of it.
That is indeed a positive outcome, and I too enjoyed it from home yesterday. Hope you're enjoying retirement Scott! I'm glad to be out of that world as well. The things I miss are far less than the things I don't miss.
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Paintings of Prehistoric Horses and Elephants in Colombia
in General Discussions
Posted
Me too. I love how rich and deep, and how detailed the color and texture is...