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  2. That would have been so interesting! I kinda see your point and @carbon dioxide as having a similar theme to it. And there's value in stepping back in evaluating whether we're getting stuck in what's just temporary and circumstantial. I'm also concerned though that we can step too far back and disengage to a point that we become apathetic to what's happening around us in our societies. When we disengage too much, it often leaves a vacuum that gives disproportionate voice to the most impassioned (and therefore often some of the more extreme ends). And that can be its own problem. I'll be
  3. I'm curious to know how you see JS producing BOM without referencing plates. What was he seeing in seer-stone, do you think? If he was working things out on the fly, how does he do this in 67 days, dictating text, spelling out names, places? Someone who does not subscribe to theory that he was reading off an existing text told me he thought JS did it in the same way he dictated revelations in the D & C i.e. the words were given to him, but yet at the same they were JS's words, his language. Is this the way you see it?
  4. The closest narrative I've found comes from Swedenborg . He wrote about ancient records that were preserved by Israelites that had been separated from the main body: Of that ancient Word which existed before the Israelitish Word...In the spiritual world I have talked with spirits and angels ... who said that they have a Word, and have had it from ancient times; and that they conduct their Divine worship according to this Word... They said, that in it also is the Book of Jasher, which is mentioned in Joshua and in 2 Samuel; and that they have also among them the books called The Wars of
  5. I disagree. While Skousen and Carmack have found forms that were in printed texts from Early Modern English, their argument entirely rests upon not finding them later than that. Both Skousen and Carmack know that this is not correct, and have indicated in various places that there is even on form in the Book of Mormon that wasn't found until literarure written after 1830. The principle of dating from the latest known dates is not used. They assume the earlier dating, and adjust their arguments to show why one might still accept the Early Modern English Book of Mormon. The second methodolo
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  7. Quite frankly, I’m persuaded what we’re encountering here is a lack of ability to A) think critically, B) comprehend subtlety and nuance, and C) effectively analyze the written word so as to gain a clear and insightful understanding of what’s been read. It’s very difficult to effectively play ‘gotcha’ when your arguments are poorly thought out and half baked.
  8. I can't get into the minds of the Brethren, and so cannot make that determination. All I can do is express my belief that they would not do that.
  9. I think what he's getting at is, "but what about _____ and what about _____?" Whataboutism will haunt us forever.
  10. We saw dangerous extremism All Summer Long and it wasn't pro-trump people.
  11. Always a difficult subject, because the American myth is so deeply seated in Mormonism: The American Religion. At some point we have to let go of it. Our salvation is not at all tied to the fate of America or the victory of one economic or political ideology over another. When you look at conflicts or tensions between faiths, it's almost always a conflict between economic or political ideologies or a battle for geography. I once had the opportunity to spend two weeks with the Prime Minister of the Exiled Government of Tibet. He's also a devout monastic. I attended a film festival wit
  12. In the economy of God, there is no need for special pleading, nor for special beings to do the Lord's work. The Bible and BofM are replete with human prophets which did God's assigned tasks. Indeed, there are those on this board who would attribute the BofM to a scholar or scholars (from a couple of centuries before Joseph Smith Jr) who actually composed the BofM based on their knowledge of SE Asian culture history. In such a case, Joseph would somehow have gotten hold of the manuscript.
  13. Excellent book. I like all of Malcolm Gladwell's books.
  14. Are you really comparing the 2016 election with the 2020 election? Give me a break. Yes, there were people who were unhappy with Trump being elected and some did speak out. But that is not extremism, That is called free speech. Extremism is when you dress up in your red hats and violently attach the nations capital. There is no justification for this.
  15. I was surprised that Peggy left out the fact of Bushman's long time as stake patriarch. Bushman is simply adopting the midrashic theory of Blake Ostler, which has been around forever, https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V20N01_68.pdf At 90, Bushman may be locked in to the 19th century theory, even though his JS bio went the opposite direction. However, Carmack & Skousen have pretty much pulled the rug out from under that old 19th century notion, since the BofM appears in Early Modern English. However, that is no defense of the BofM, bu
  16. I don't think he was reading a text. I think he saw text in his mind, but that it wasn't "faxed" to him verbatim (i.e., that he put the images and thoughts into the English at his command). I believe that the Spirit helped him commit superhuman feats of memory (i.e., with the Isaiah and other KJV material), and that his immersion in the KJV Bible after the First Vision and Moroni's visit informed and complemented his local rural upstate New York syntax.
  17. We saw dangerous extremism happen on Jan 6, and it wasn't anti-trump people.
  18. This is the traditional view, the one I used to have: that JS was "studying it out in his mind" and then rendering it into his own English. But the fact that we now know that JS did not reference the plates while translating, that he read off the words from seer-stone, so many words per minute (as per Skousen), spelling out names, places, and that he did this in 67 working days ... It seems he was reading off an existing translation. Or at least this is the theory that makes the most sense to me.
  19. Sometimes when your in a building such as an airport, your modar (mormon radar) doesn't work if it's not tuned correctly. I suggest starting outside so you can recieve a clear signal, then once you get the hang of it, move inside🤣🤣
  20. The only theory I have heard was advanced by Royal Skousen, that the BOM is a "creative and cultural translation" from 15th-16 century, but he does not say who did this translation. I assume he thinks it was a prophet, or prophets. I have heard Stanford Carmack (name correct?) say that, considering the mix of EModE and modern English, this translation was perhaps done by more than one person. It seems to me that JS, looking into his seer-stone and producing BOM in 67 days, no pauses, no going back to rework anything, spelling out names, places—it seems clear to me that he was not working
  21. I'm sure you agree that the prophets try to convey their revelation and inspiration publicly in "normal and natural ways." When I said, "I think old-fashioned styles would be mocked for style and detract from the revelation content," I meant it in [what i consider to be] the normal and natural sense, as in "enough to make a difference to the prophets who share the same social mores," not in a black-or-white sense that all would be universally mocked.
  22. I think politically-activated violence is even more fundamentally rooted in bias than in misinformation. We can perceive and manipulate solid facts in such a biased way as to turn them into misinformation, or even have a bias not to manipulate them at all. Then there is a bias for violent acts, whereby facts or misinformation are used to support them. So I think the problem is not extreme beliefs or the bias that creates them, but the violence and the bias that creates it. Many people believe "x" but only a very few use it to justify their violence as means to a political end. Moral
  23. I'd like to respond but I'd probably get banned. How do you get away with political comments questions like this? I recall once I got banned for a week for saying nothing more than "Thank you Mitt"
  24. When i was going on my mission I was at the Chicago Airport. I spotted another young guy, suit, bags family seeing him off-the whole thing. I figured he was also going on a mission. Turns he wasn't...he was going into FBI training.
  25. You are talking about the anti-climactic meeting of the Twelve and First Presidency, which was certainly not the initial revelation, and certainly not an instance of dialogic revelation. You seem to misunderstand the sequence of revelatory events.
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