417 replies to this topic

[KevinG]

Part of the problem here may be that several posters not mainstream "chapel" LDS like to present information in denial of Josephs practice.

RLDS-CoC
other Mormonite groups
LDS who take issue with the issue

all present alternate theories.

For an outsider (to whom all Mormons look alike on the internet) this can present the appearance of confusion among the masses.

[Zakuska]

Quote

except perhaps in retrospect upon reflection by the already departed that that was the sine qua non of departure.

I think we are missing some data here though.

Where they told as the RLDs maintain that Joseph Smith didn't practiced Polygamy?  And then Found out that he Did.

Beings how D&C 132 is cannonized and published by the LDS A don't see where this could be a probelm.

Perhaps if someone actually did their reading before hand they would have some questions that could be answered in class.  After teaching Elders Qurom. Let me tell you... participaction is greatly appreciated.  

If more people participated in class and brought out points that maybe the instructor hasn't it helps as well.

[Scottie]

USU78, on Aug 23 2005, 04:02 PM, said:

Scottie, on Aug 23 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

{snip}

You can bury your head all you want, but IT IS A PROBLEM!!!

And you can keep asserting such till Bossie comes marching home, but, in my experience and the experience of most folks hereabouts, it ain't a problem . . . except perhaps in retrospect upon reflection by the already departed that that was the sine qua non of departure.

Not credible, my dear Scott.  Simply not credible.

I would have to say that you are right.

In my little world I have observed it to be a problem.  All the posts I see here and the reaction I get from people when I tell them are but a miniscule subset of the LDS population.

Perhaps the vast majority of Church Mormons wouldn't give a rats hind end when they found out about JS.  My experience has shown me otherwise, but, as I said, that is too small a sample to base such a broad generalization.

My apologies.

[noel00]

On LDS.org there is a section of Joseph Smith since its the 200th Anniversary of his birth. There is a section on Joseph and Emma with some quotes of his feelings towards her. NOWWHERE can I find anything about his other wives. Did he writes letters of love to them? Did he make them feel special? My wife knows where I am all the time, did Emma know where Joseph was?. Did he visit his other wives without her knowledge?  How did Zina Huntington feel, being married to Smith while living with Lyn Jacobs and having his children?

[Deborah]

After I joined the church at age 14, I heard some things I questioned, like polygamy. But because I already had a powerful spiritual experience in finding the church, it didn't affect my testimony. I decided that I would understand some things at a later time. And I did.

Missionaries are sent out to show people gospel truths not to give history lessons. The fact is many people already associate Mormons with polygamy so I don't think it's as big a shock as some like to make out. I think it's so funny that the anit-Mormon's are more hung up on the polygamy issue than the faithful members of the church. You might ask why that is. I think it's because they want something to hang their lack of faithfulness on and justify their apostasy and rebellion.

History is fascinating to study, but people need to be careful to study it in the context of the times and surrounding events. I think it's disgusting to condemn good men who accomplished great things, whether Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or our nation's Founding Fathers, because of personal human weaknesses. To me the foibles of ordinary men makes the extraordinary things they accomplished even more amazing and our focus should be on the good they accomplished. How many of you want your lives examined under a microscope, especially by people who do not know anything about you but are only going by what they read or hear which may or many not be factual or presented in its proper context.

[awyatt]

noel00, on Aug 23 2005, 03:35 PM, said:

On LDS.org there is a section of Joseph Smith since its the 200th Anniversary of his birth. There is a section on Joseph and Emma with some quotes of his feelings towards her. NOWWHERE can I find anything about his other wives. Did he writes letters of love to them? Did he make them feel special? My wife knows where I am all the time, did Emma know where Joseph was?. Did he visit his other wives without her knowledge?  How did Zina Huntington feel, being married to Smith while living with Lyn Jacobs and having his children?

And how, pray tell, does ANY of this contribute to things being hidden? Would knowing Zina's feelings make anyone more faithful or less faithful? (We do know Zina's feelings, as she recorded them in later years. Yet, those critical refuse to accept them.)

How will "disclosing" any of this information make the critics less critical, the naive less naive, the unwilling more willing, or the faithful more faithful? The information is out there, and those who are interested will find it--those who aren't interested won't give a hoot and will continue to be ignorant, blissful, or ignorantly blissful. If, at some later time in their lives they become interested, they will either learn and accept it, or they will learn it and say "why was this hidden" (regardless of the fact that it wasn't).

Move on, folks.

-Allen

[charity]

I think Rollo and others who have the same out of whack views ("I think the Church bears some of the blame for avoiding (or at least downplaying) embarrassing events and doctrines in its past) are skating on thin ice.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

[Kenngo1969]

Zakuska, on Aug 23 2005, 02:51 PM, said:

She did what?!

Quote

We discussed the issues Emma Smith had with polygamy, as she pushed Eliza R Snow down some steps one day for being one of Joseph's wives.

Ohh... THATS IT....  This CHURCH is soooo false.

This Church is hiding things from me and not being honest.

Emma pushed a pregnant girl down the stairs!  And why did she do it?  Because the Church told her to!

My Bishop didn't give me a calling I wanted.  He must not be super man in those magic undaroos after all!

Im outta her! Wheres my exit papers.

Ken Spearheads the Next "Op" of the "Strengthening the Members" Committee:  Okey-dokey boys, gether 'round and gear up!  We got ourselves another runner!  Rifles?  Check!  Ammo?  Check!  Tasers?  Check!  OC?  Check!  Flash-bang grenades?  Check!  Call out the dogs, and mobilize the copters with the search lights!  I want a hard-target search of every building, every ranch house, every outhouse, every hen house, and every doghouse in this area!  He kin run, but he cain't hide!  He's ours, boys!  Jist give it time, and he's ours!

[Neighbor]

"Withhold the truth in unrighteousness"?  It isn't right to uphold following Hitlers ideals in part without knowing that he murdered more than a million innocent people, yet there are those who only want to hear the good things about him and not the whole story.  I say this as an example, not to claim that Joseph Smith Jr. is a Hitler.

One very  important thing is that God's people not lie.  God said that, not me.  What matters is that the truth is spoken with love, but it still has to be the truth, not against the truth.

A recent example is how the Church treated Grant Palmer, whose crime was to realize that there are issues hidden, and he seemed to think LDS are honest people and deserve to know the truth.  Yet, what happened to Mr. Palmer when he wrote a book about how he was trying to make the most of some bad things?  He was held up for Church discipline.  As he said during his radio interview in SLC before the 'hearing' - "I don't know how to repent of the truth."

As a non member, who has seen many things about the man, Joseph Smith Jr., and other leaders in your Church, yes, many things are a stumbling block to me, as I can believe fully in Jesus Christ, but not Joseph Smith.  So, if we all desire to serve our Lord Jesus Christ, by Jesus own words, God seeks those who worship Him in spirit and truth.  There is no lie of the truth.  The longer you deny the truth it will fester and infect more people who should be focusing their faith in Jesus Christ anyway.

I think Mormon leadership has a real problem with 'true honesty' vs 'faith building honesty'.

Early Mormons never heard about the 'first vision', yet now LDS leaders have said that your entire religion and Church rests upon believing it.  How can that be if the gospel is about Jesus Christ? and of Jesus Christ?  that He was born of a virgin, the only begotten Son of God, preached the gospel, died on the cross, and was resurrected that we might believe in Him, obey Him, trust Him, and let Him be our teacher by word and Spirit?  It should be about Jesus fulfilling the very word of God, not about whether or not Joseph saw anything.  Our faith has to be in Jesus.

Why put a stumbling block in the way of brethren?  If that is done, certainly the judgement of God will not remain idle if people don't repent.

Edited by Neighbor, 23 August 2005 - 04:11 PM.

[Neighbor]

Kennego, I most certainly don't find your remark one bit funny.  Members who dared to speak the truth were sometimes killed or dismembered.

I find your remark to be quite disgusting in fact, and totally out of the character of one possessing the promised Holy Spirit.  "By their fruits ye shall know them."

[Beowulf]

After hesitating a LONG time, I am finally reading Dan Vogel's biography of Joseph Smith.

While he is good on historical facts, none of those facts are new to me, having read them elsewhere (I am still on Joseph's childhood, at the moment). But as a historian, I am disturbed at his injection of assumptions into the narrative, and can see where Vogel is heading already.

When Joseph gets his bone cut out, at great pain, and then being on crutches for 18 months, or getting tossed out of a carriage so that the driver can make room for girlfriends (as happened to him at age 11), Vogel asserts this must have been traumatic to him.

Maybe. But did Joseph EVER tell us he was traumatized? (In point of fact, he never told us about these events at all. We only know about them because his mother wrote it down. And SHE never reported that he was traumatized, either. In other words, it is just Vogel's opinion.)

My point here is that history is always INTERPRETED by someone. If the person does not believe (as Dan Vogel has candidly admitted), then his project will be biased, in looking for something, ANYTHING, that could explain Joseph's unusual behavior.

By contrast, a faithful history looks at JS, and sees a prophet in formation. It becomes hagiographical almost unconsciously.

Neither of these interpretations will be totally accurate. Granted, the hagiography tends to overlook Joseph's defects. Dan Vogel's naturalistic version, on the other hand, refuses to take Joseph at his word.

Beowulf

[Dill Pickles]

Kenngo1969, on Aug 23 2005, 04:08 PM, said:

Ken Spearheads the Next "Op" of the "Strengthening the Members" Committee:  Okey-dokey boys, gether 'round and gear up!  We got ourselves another runner!  Rifles?  Check!  Ammo?  Check!  Tasers?  Check!  OC?  Check!  Flash-bang grenades?  Check!  Call out the dogs, and mobilize the copters with the search lights!  I want a hard-target search of every building, every ranch house, every outhouse, every hen house, and every doghouse in this area!  He kin run, but he cain't hide!  He's ours, boys!  Jist give it time, and he's ours!

from the Pickle jar: hey, Worchestershire sauce! Could you check the cooking sherry bottle? Looks like someone's been sipping it instead of dipping it again.  

[HiJolly]

N,

Your post is so...  irritating...  that I can't even address it point by point.  But I will respond to your mention of Grant Palmer.  

Neighbor, on Aug 23 2005, 04:10 PM, said:

<snip>  A recent example is how the Church treated Grant Palmer, whose crime was to realize that there are issues hidden, and he seemed to think LDS are honest people and deserve to know the truth.  Yet, what happened to Mr. Palmer when he wrote a book about how he was trying to make the most of some bad things?  He was held up for Church discipline.  As he said during his radio interview in SLC before the 'hearing' - "I don't know how to repent of the truth."

Is that his crime?  I think not.  He was paid to teach things he didn't believe.  That should be a crime.  I think I'd change careers, if it were me, instead of lying just for money (in this case, money becomes filthy lucre, IMO).  He wrote a book full of speculation and opinion.  I read the book.  He was mistaken in his disbelief.  As I closed the book for the last time, I felt a heavy sadness for his lack of faith.  As we experience joy in teaching others the glory of God and His Gospel, so Grant will someday see the opposite of this, as he experiences the loss of faith of many who read and believe his error.  

HiJolly

[charity]

Neighbor,  I am clueless here.  What did you think Ken was referring to?  Maybe I will be highly offended too, if I knew what was going on. Thanks

[Zakuska]

I found it quite amusing.  The flash-bangs where a nice touch!  You play CS?

[Neighbor]

Grant, to me, seems to love LDS more than you seem to understand.  I'm sure he came to see that all was not as was first painted to him in the portrait of Joseph Smith Jr. that the Church envisions.  

Who was it that said: "No man has seen God at any time"?

Did they lie?  Was the Holy Spirit who inspired their words somehow ignorant of the future?

Personally, I believe the statement was true, so I don't believe the latter story as it developed into his personally haveing seen God.  The story doesn't fit with Phillipians 2 either.

I'll believe Jesus, you believe whoever you want to.  I'm just making a comment for your consideration.

[Zakuska]

Is it not mentioned as a "Vision".

Did Not Ezekiel have the Vision? (Ez1)

Did Not John?  (Rev 4-5)

If you look at the writings of the prophets and compare them.  They all describe the same exact thing!

The beast with six wings are all over the bible!

You say you beleive Jesus... The probelm with that statment is Jesus didnt write the verse in question.

And speaking of Story development.  The first telling of Pauls vision doesnt match the 3rd.  Over time it got more spectacular!  Have you ever stopped and compared it?

In the first telling only paul fell down.  By the time he told it to the King... Paul his donkey and everyone else fell down as well.

Following you logic... I should reject both Joseph Smith and Paul.

Edited by Zakuska, 23 August 2005 - 04:36 PM.

[awyatt]

Quote

Zakuska said: You say you beleive Jesus... The probelm with that statment is Jesus didnt write the verse in question.

Good point. People don't believe Jesus; they believe what someone else wrote about Jesus. We don't have the words of Jesus Himself, except as they are (sometimes inconsistently) recorded by others.

-Allen

[Neighbor]

Charity,
Don't take my word for it.  Read the words of the personal bodyguard of both Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young who was abandoned and sacrificed to cover up Church involvement in the MMM.  Read his words and see what you think.  He covers the history from early on until his execution from the viewpoint of an insider who wanted the truth to be known.  You can get a copy of it at Amazon.com, and it is pretty reasonable.  An original copy costs over $800.00 because the Church was so dillegent to destroy the book out of every source of public access.  They didn't get them all though, and you have the privilage to hear the history of the early Mormon Church outside the bounds of the Church authorities, but from a TBM.  See what you think of it.  If you allow the Church to dissuade you from reading it, you are allowing them to deny you your free agency.

Truth matters.

"Mormonism Unveiled or Life & Confessions of John D. Lee and Brigham Young", commonly known as "Mormonism Unveiled", not to be confused with Howe's book of the same title.

John maintained his faith in Joseph Smith and the Church in spite of it all.

Edited by Neighbor, 23 August 2005 - 04:41 PM.

[HiJolly]

Neighbor, on Aug 23 2005, 04:27 PM, said:

Grant, to me, seems to love LDS more than you seem to understand.  I'm sure he came to see that all was not as was first painted to him in the portrait of Joseph Smith Jr. that the Church envisions. 

What a ....  Sorry, I don't need Dunamis this time to clean up my text!  *I* "came to see that all was not as was"... blah blah blah.  So what?  We grow up, we learn how things are, we either lose our innocence or are protected by it.  That how it goes.  

Neighbor, on Aug 23 2005, 04:27 PM, said:

<snip>  I'll believe Jesus, you believe whoever you want to.  I'm just making a comment for your consideration.

Consider it considered, and I'll leave it at that.  He may have all that love, I don't question that.  After all, working in the prison as he did does take love for your fellow man, IMO.  OTOH, he was being, again, paid...   Hmmm...  


HiJolly