But instead, we have Moroni preparing an alternate set of plates (miraculously covering the exact material to be lost hundreds of years later), carting them thousands of miles to bury them, revealing them to Joseph, who is then pestered by Martin Harris at the exact moment they reach the spot where the "back up" record ends, to the point that the manuscript is lost and Joseph has to translate the alternate record
I always imagined that the plates Joseph found went something like this: "book of lehi" (lost 116), BOM, and then the sealed portion. Are you saying this is wrong?
Are you saying the BOM we have is translated from an entirely different physical set of plates that were not given to JS at cumorah?
Where did he get them?
It is well to beware of people who go about proclaiming that they are or their churches are liberal. - Elder Widtstoe
Here's how the LDS version of the story goes, as recounted in Words of Mormon. Keep in mind there are two sets of plates:
- The Large Plates of Nephi (these were translated into the 116 pages)
- The Small Plates of Nephi (these are now 1 Nephi-Omni)
Mormon is about to give the plates (Large Plates of Nephi) to Moroni (v.1)
He hopes Moroni will live a little longer (v.2)
Recap of what he has written, which are the Large Plates of Nephi, telling the story up to King Benjamin. (v.3)
But then he finds another set of plates (The Small Plates of Nephi), which contain "Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of these words of Nephi." (v.3)
He likes these new small plates. (v.4)
He puts his record with the Small Plates of Nephi (v.5)
He is including the Small Plates, which end right at the start of King Benjamin's reign, with the collection he gives to Moroni (v.6)
He is doing this because the Lord is telling him to include this redundant set (v.7)
He hopes the Lamanites will repent (v.
He finishes the record from the Large Plates of Nephi (v.9)
Tells how the plates were handed down (v.10 & 11)
Summarizes the story of the Lamanites and King Benjamin for a few verses, and then ends his contribution in verse 18, ends with....
" ...by laboring with all the might of his body and the faculty of his whole soul, and also the prophets, did once more establish peace in the land."
So that is how the Small Plates of Nephi End. Then, in the translation process, Mosiah is taken from the Large Plates of Nephi, starting right where Mormon left off in his summary...
Quote
Mosiah 1
[1] And now there was no more contention in all the land of Zarahemla, among all the people who belonged to king Benjamin, so that king Benjamin had continual peace all the remainder of his days.
So how did Mormon know that he needed to summarize up to the exact point where the Book of Mosiah would be starting.
Here is how it fits into a theorized timeline for the Book of Mormon translation:
Quote
Royal Skousen presents an excellent analysis of Mormon's insertion of the small plates of Nephi at the juncture where the 116 pages were lost, and suggests very plausibly that there may have been two chapters of Mosiah 1 which were lost with the 116 pages, and that our present Book of Mosiah begins with what would have been Mosiah Chapter 3 [CM 138-139].
The additional few pages which were retained by Joseph Smith would therefore be the Words of Mormon, as that is the next book in sequence, mentions the reign of King Benjamin, fits the sequential timing requirements and provides a logical interim stopping point. The Words of Mormon was therefore probably translated before the loss of the 116 pages, and constitutes the earliest translated portion of the Book of Mormon which we still have.
Now, according to that website, the chronology for the Book of Mormon translation is probably as follows:
Book of Lehi (116 Pages) - LOST
Mosiah 1 - Moroni 10
Title Page
1 Nephi - Omni
Now, the question is, was Words of Mormon translated at the same time as the Book of Lehi (but not lost)? Or was it translated last, after Omni, and bridging Omni to Mosiah? (The website theorizes it was before, making it the earliest translated portion of the BoM that we still have).
Either way, Mormon had to summarize in Words of Mormon to the exact spot where Mosiah would pick up after the pages were lost. There's no redundancy or gaps!
And if Words of Mormon were translated last, Joseph Smith would have known exactly how to bridge the gaps, since he already had Mosiah 1 to refer to.
In spite of the world's arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God's prophets.
So could somebody at least try to explain how the 116 pages fit in, IF Joseph Smith made this all up? There are a couple of things I don�¢â?¬â?¢t really get. I�¢â?¬â?¢m not saying this proves that Book of Mormon. But what I am saying is Joseph Smith really would have to think of everything to fool everybody to believe the Book of Mormon Story? There is one thing to forge a book, but to through whole account of loosing part of it? How does this fit in to those that believe the Book of Mormon is all false?
First Joseph Smith would have to at least planned from the start to loose the first 116 pages, but make sure he take into account (in other places) that loosing the 116 pages was known before hand. (Either Joseph Smith wrote the whole book of Mormon before he started to dictate it to Martin Harris (and others), or just remember to include that little scenario later).
Next, (unless Martin Harris was part of the scheme from the start) Joseph Smith would have to make sure that Martin Harris asked to take what he had dictated for the last while to show his family. Then Joseph Smith would have to make sure Martin Harris was persistent enough to ask 3 times. Then finally let Martin Harris borrow the pages, making sure to put Martin Harris under covenant.
Next Joseph Smith would have to have known (or planed it someway) that Martin Harris�¢â?¬â?¢s family actually take the 116 pages. Making sure the never return.
Joseph Smith also would have to make up some revelations that scold himself (and Martin), and then have to make up another Revelation explaining the reason why the pages were lose.
So IF Joseph Smith is this big fraud (as people say), why did he go to all this trouble? What did it accomplish? Who was he trying to fool? And how in the world did he do it?
Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know...I don't know what the right word is. I know that when a -- I know -- you're correct. Donald H. Rumsfeld Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing
tubaloth, the critics believe that Joseph Smith didn't plan on losing the 116 pages. They believe that after the pages were lost, he made up the the story of the small plates so he wouldn't have to reproduce the 116 pages. I'm don't know if that answers your question or not.
Take a look at the type of things that the early Church had to endure. Rapes, murders, mass lynchings, towns destroyed, robbings, etc.
Yeah and that doesn't even count what was done to the members of the church by the nonmembers.
Moderator: Tarski, clean it up. The one-liner sneering is getting old and it seems to have no other purpose other than to disrupt a civil and interesting discussion. Consider this your official warning.
“What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
Ok tubaloth, I give up. I have no choice but to post it:
South Park: All About the Mormons
(Gary Sr. has just shared the story of the lost 116 pages with the investigating Marsh family)
Quote
Gary Sr.: And that's how it happened.
Kids: Yeah! All right!
[the Marshes sit there without a word to say]
Stan: ...Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?
Gary Sr.: Well sure. The story proves it, doesn't it?
Stan: No, it proves he DID make it all up. Are you blind?
Mark: Well, Stan, it's all a matter of faith.
In spite of the world's arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God's prophets.
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