Was God once a man?

[Beowulf]

Glorified = Dematerialized ???

I don't think so....

[Zakuska]

I would say not Mortal.

If it does not have proton nuetrons and electrons it does not exist. And our God given senses cannot detect it. Other wise its only a random thought in a blue print.

[Zakuska]

How does God having a body that our mortal bodies where patterned after place a limitation on God?

Was not Christ able to lay his body down and take it back up agian?

It sure seems to me that God has a body as dipicted on many prominent cathedral ceilings and walls.

Sisteen ring any bells.

Heck read Ezekiel 1 and Rev 4-5. Notice the various Eye witness accounts of who God looks like. They match perfectly with what Joseph Smith saw in his first vision.

A glorfied immortal Man beyond description, pointing to a Glorfied son standing next to him.

[thesometimesaint]

Brent:

Do you not see where the LDS would have a hard time understanding this on again off again, on again, resurrected dematerialized God that sits on a throne, can't sit because He has no body, that fits in your heart, yet fills the whole universe, you have dreamed up?

[Restformationist]

I would say not Mortal.

If it does not have proton nuetrons and electrons it does not exist. And our God given senses cannot detect it. Other wise its only a random thought in a blue print.

You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) God has a physical body and lives somewhere inside 3rd-dimensional space and time. Does that mean God is limited by the speed of light?

Or is it possible God exists in a higher realm?

I have no doubt God has created other worlds; and He can be there and here at the same time. What do you think? Placing God in a 3rd-dimensional physical body severely limits that ability.

[juliann]

I believe in the God of Moroni 8:18 and Mormon 9:9-10. God is not an exalted man. He is an eternal God who has always been as He is today. He can be anywhere He wants. He has a body, but it's not physical in the sense we are capable of understanding. He is the God who created the entire universe and everything in it. He has no father -- He IS the Father.

Well, I can pretty much believe that as a Mormon. (Except that we believe Christ created our world under the direction of the Father..and we will run into problems with ex nihilo creation). We don't believe his body is physical in the sense we are, either. I have no need to know if God has a father (and mother). It doesn't effect my salvation one whit. Each theory has its inherent problems so I choose to keep an open mind but concentrate on the God that we do know.

BTW...you have a huge, huge problem with saying God is the "same" while maintaining a part of him took on a body and then discarded it.

[juliann]

I have no doubt God has created other worlds; and He can be there and here at the same time. What do you think? Placing God in a 3rd-dimensional physical body severely limits that ability.

Why? There is no tangible reason beyond traditional belief that would dictate this. Is God all-powerful or not? In fact, a case can be made (and has by non-LDS philosophers) that not having a body is more limiting.

You continue to throw in "time" which is also based on tradition. What happens with that is you end up formulating your idea of God based on your conception of time instead of the other way around.

[Restformationist]

I believe in the God of Moroni 8:18 and Mormon 9:9-10. God is not an exalted man. He is an eternal God who has always been as He is today. He can be anywhere He wants. He has a body, but it's not physical in the sense we are capable of understanding. He is the God who created the entire universe and everything in it. He has no father -- He IS the Father.

Well, I can pretty much believe that as a Mormon. (Except that we believe Christ created our world under the direction of the Father..and we will run into problems with ex nihilo creation). We don't believe his body is physical in the sense we are, either. I have no need to know if God has a father (and mother). It doesn't effect my salvation one whit. Each theory has its inherent problems so I choose to keep an open mind but concentrate on the God that we do know.

BTW...you have a huge, huge problem with saying God is the "same" while maintaining a part of him took on a body and then discarded it.

That's a respectable response. Thank you.

One thing - are Mormons generally the only ones who believe Christ created the earth?

I can't speak for my fellow OC's. But my understanding comes from Hebrews 1:2 which states: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...

First, I have no doubt God has other creations. Second, Christ created it under the guidance of the Father.

So I suspect we agree on that issue.

[Zakuska]

I would say not Mortal.

If it does not have proton nuetrons and electrons it does not exist.

[Zakuska]

Love Hebrews and especially that verse.

Sorry but I got to run. Its been fun.

Thanks Juliann for the pointers Ill try and remember that.

[Restformationist]

Gods thrown is at the center of all things. 3rd Dimensional space? His body has to be somewhere. His spirit permiates everything. Is that not what the scriptures say?

Heres a better question. Do the scriptures teach us that God lives outside his own Kingdom as your question leads us to beleive? Are their other Kingdoms and Kings ouside of his Kingdom? Who are all these eyes running to and fro in the earth and reporting back to God who the scriptures tells us is in heaven and the earth is his foot stool?

Since God is everywhere is he in hell?

1 Corinthians 15, which you were kind enough to bring up, says there are two glories of body: one of earth and one of heaven. To me this implies God exists in a higher realm. FYI, there is no "center" of everything.

Angels and demons are amongst us, yet we cannot see them. How come?

[Restformationist]

See you later Zakuska. It has been interesting.

I have to be going as well. God bless all,

Brent

[thesometimesaint]

Brent:

The LDS have no theology concerning the location of heaven other than it is not here.

The LDS are free to speculate all they want.

There is no LDS theology on the ability of God to exceed the speed of light. Though we do know from Scripture that Jesus walked on water. He obviously knows more about somethings than we do.

You are having God make a rock so heavy that God can not lift.

[Restformationist]

Since God is everywhere is he in hell?

I saw this and wanted to reply before leaving.

"Hell" is translated from sheoul, which means "death," or more literally, "the grave." Hell is simply the waiting place for resurrection. Everyone goes to hell when we die.

One judgement day, all will be resurrected. Those who are found guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit will be sent back to the grave for an eternity of "non-existence." What of the Lake of Fire? I believe it's part of the parable, i.e. in the parable of the sheep and goats.

Hell isn't a "real" place.

Btw, I never said God is everywhere - I said He can be anywhere He wants to be.

[thesometimesaint]

Brent:

Please substantiate from the Scripture that HELL is not a real place.

[Maureen]

What about John 4:24?

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

This is a good example of what translators do. This reads "God as a spirit" (there is an article in the Greek)......

Yes, this is can be a choice of translation. "God is a spirit..." is a KJV translation but others translate it as "God is spirit...".

One is struck by the simplicity of the text of this verse in its original language, translated easily by anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of NT Greek. Yet the profundity of doctrine it contains regarding God and those who would worship Him, leaves the ablest theologian with much to ponder. There has been some discussion about the insertion of the indefinite article

[ave maria]

No...but you have just identified the problem with trinitarians making an issue of this.  If you believe Jesus was "man" then you believe that God was "man".  Or at least a third of him.

This is close to being correct, but incorrect enough to be problematic.

The way the question on this thread in phrased, it is difficult for a traditional Christian to respond without some clarification of intent.

If in stating "God," one is talking about "God the Father," (one of three persons in the Godhead or Holy Trinity), a traditional Christian who believes in the trinity will likely say no.

If in stating "God," one is referring to "Jesus Christ," (one of three persons in the Godhead or Holy Trinity), a traditional Christian who believes in the trinity will be obliged to say yes.

Both are fully God, as is the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost--not one-third.

So, if the question is, was God once a man (in the traditional LDS sense of the question, was God the Father once a mortal who became a God), the answer is no.

If the question is, did God become man, in the person of Jesus Christ, the answer is yes.

This is not a problem for the traditional Christian/trinitarian.

(LDS will quote the verse where Jesus says he only does what he saw the Father do...a verse that conventional Christians tend to skip over)

Again, this implies a misunderstanding or misstatement of trinitiarian belief. Trinitarians hold that there are three distinct persons in the Holy Trinity, not one, just as LDS believe there are three persons in the Godhead. The difference is, as has been stated many times previously, LDS see those as three separate Gods, and trinitarians see those as three persons/entities who are fully God, who together form one God (stated as "Godhead," in LDS belief).

Making it otherwise is incorrect.

Perhaps one of the best scriptural illustrations of this is in the first chapter of John:

1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.--John 1:1-5, 14 (emphasis mine)

[juliann]

Yes, this is can be a choice of translation. "God is a spirit..." is a KJV translation but others translate it as "God is spirit...".

One is struck by the simplicity of the text of this verse in its original language, translated easily by anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of NT Greek. Yet the profundity of doctrine it contains regarding God and those who would worship Him, leaves the ablest theologian with much to ponder. There has been some discussion about the insertion of the indefinite article

[Restformationist]

Brent:

Please substantiate from the Scripture that HELL is not a real place.

It is real, but it's not necessary a "place." Sheoul is death. What is death? Hmm...difficult to define. Non-existence, perhaps? Is non-existence a "place"? Not really. Hell (Sheoul) is the "waiting place" for the resurrection. It is logical to assume Jesus went to hell (into the grave) before rising from the dead, because He conquered death so we wouldn't be trapped in hell forever. In order to conquer it, He would have to overcome it, which He did.

[Zeitgeist]

How about neither.

Zeitgeist

[thesometimesaint]

Brent:

Hell is a honest to God real place. BIBLE DICTIONARY

HELL

An English translation of the Hebrew word Shoel, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient.

[Restformationist]

How about neither.

Zeitgeist

Neither of what?

Could you elaborate?

[Restformationist]

thesometimesaint,

I take the word sheoul literally -- death, the grave. What is death? If we are dead, then we're not concious. David went to sheoul (as stated in Psalms and Acts.)

It is a "waiting place," but it can't be a physical place. Well, let me put it this way -- even if it were a physical place, we would never know, because we're dead. Last time I checked, dead people aren't able to comprehend their surroundings.

Christ rose from the dead so we will be resurrected. The righteous will be rewarded with eternal life (salvation), and the unrighteous will be punished with eternal death (sheoul). Do you agree? Well, from where are we going to be resurrected: death (sheoul), or some place that is called sheoul but isn't really sheoul?

Btw, as you should know, excerpts from D&C and BoM mean nothing to me. I will check out the Bible verses, but I suspect we're dealing with differences in interpretation, which is granted, very common in discussions between orthodox Christians and Latter-day Saints.

[Bernard Gui]

Here is an excerpt from a statement issued by the First

Presidency in 1909, "The Origin of Man." It was reprinted

in the Ensign, February 2002.

"God himself is an exalted man, perfected, enthroned, and

supreme...Man is the child of God, formed in the divine

image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as

the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable

in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped

offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience

through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God."

Bernard

[Neighbor]

God was once a man.

Jesus Christ was God veiled in the flesh.

God was once a man, God is not a man.

My issue with the Follet sermon is teaching God was a man before becoming a God. God has always been God. Gods word became flesh and dwelt among men. Gods word resumed His previous status and glory upon His return to heaven.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father is God.

Jesus Christ is God.

There is only one God.