Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I understand there is debate over what was truly said on that day of the King Folette discourse, but humor me. Most of my LDS friends will say Joe's words are taken out of context and/or improperly recorded. That is an acceptable answer.If Joseph really did say that, however, he was in direct contradiction with Moroni 8:18 and Mormon 9:9-10. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Two people have voted yes.I'm curious, could you explain how that fits in with the Book of Mormon?Before anyone gets defensive, please understand I'm not an "anti." I've just never received a clear answer on this. Link to comment
juliann Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I can't speak for your friends, but most LDS will say that it is a semantic issue. "Man" is usually used by critics as derogatory closer to the meaning of "the nature of man". Even Jesus was not just "like us". Did God have a mortal experience? Yes. Do we know what that entails? No.And if you are going to come on an LDS board use elementary respect and refer to our leaders by their actual name. Thanks. Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Actually, God still is a man, albeit a glorified, perfect, immortal, incorruptible man, but a man nonetheless... Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 I can't speak for your friends, but most LDS will say that it is a semantic issue. "Man" is usually used by critics as derogatory closer to the meaning of "the nature of man". Even Jesus was not just "like us". Did God have a mortal experience? Yes. Do we know what that entails? No.Ok, are you saying Joseph was referring to Christ? Well, if that is the case, I agree with him.And if you are going to come on an LDS board use elementary respect and refer to our leaders by their actual name. Thanks.No problem. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Actually, God still is a man, albeit a glorified, perfect, immortal, incorruptible man, but a man nonetheless... What about John 4:24? God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Brent:So I must die before I can pray? Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Brent:So I must die before I can pray? I have no idea what you're getting at. Jesus is our intercessor; we pray to the Father in the name of Christ. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Brant:As I must be only a spirit to worship him. I obviously have a physical body. Must I die before I can pray to God? Link to comment
Maureen Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Brent:So I must die before I can pray? tss - You are a human being; man/woman. Therefore you have a body, soul and spirit. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out how we can have a relationship with God if we have that spiritual connection.M. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Brent:So I must die before I can pray? tss - You are a human being; man/woman. Therefore you have a body, soul and spirit. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out how we can have a relationship with God if we have that spiritual connection.M. I do have a relationship with God, but that does not require God to have once been a man like me. Humans have a spirit because we are made in the image of God. Our bodies, however, are not in His likeliness. God is a Spirit.I still do not understand the point you're trying to make. Link to comment
Magyar Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The point being made is that if that Bible verse is defining God as only spirit, then we must become disembodied spirits, too, in order to worship him, as per the second part of that verse, or it appears inconsistent. Obviously, we don't do that, so obviously that verse is not defining God as only spirit. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Maureen:I'm a male. I have no problem with God being a spirit and having a physical body, as I am a spirit having a physical body(only very far from perfect or perfected) I've never prayed to an amorphus blob of nonmaterial spirit matter, whatever that is.I pray to MY Heavenly Father. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 The point being made is that if that Bible verse is defining God as only spirit, then we must become disembodied spirits, too, in order to worship him, as per the second part of that verse, or it appears inconsistent. Obviously, we don't do that, so obviously that verse is not defining God as only spirit. It says we should worship Him in spirit, as in with our spirit. I don't know how that implies we must be disembodied to worship God. Link to comment
Magyar Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The often overlooked fact is that Christians believe that Jesus was fully God even while clothed in his mortal body. Some even pay attention to the fact that after his resurrection, he still declared he had a body of flesh and bone, yet had not ceased to be God.So what is so horrifying about Mormons believing that God, as in the Father, has a body, too?I thought they were all one, as per the classical Trinity. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 If God has a physical body, how can He be in more than one place at once? Link to comment
juliann Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 What about John 4:24? God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth. This is a good example of what translators do. This reads "God as a spirit" (there is an article in the Greek). [Correction: this is incorrect. It reads without the article] My other favorite is how the commonly used plural heavens has been rendered singular to fit in with prevailing beliefs. Ok, are you saying Joseph was referring to Christ? Well, if that is the case, I agree with him.No...but you have just identified the problem with trinitarians making an issue of this. If you believe Jesus was "man" then you believe that God was "man". Or at least a third of him. (LDS will quote the verse where Jesus says he only does what he saw the Father do...a verse that conventional Christians tend to skip over) Link to comment
Magyar Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The point being made is that if that Bible verse is defining God as only spirit, then we must become disembodied spirits, too, in order to worship him, as per the second part of that verse, or it appears inconsistent. Obviously, we don't do that, so obviously that verse is not defining God as only spirit. It says we should worship Him in spirit, as in with our spirit. I don't know how that implies we must be disembodied to worship God. No, you added "with" our spirit. Your text says "in spirit." You can't take one part of the verse literally but not the other. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 I believe God took on flesh to provide atonement for our sins and so that we will be resurrected from the dead. Furthermore, so that we can have a relationship with God the Father through Christ. Link to comment
juliann Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 If God has a physical body, how can He be in more than one place at once? Bodily, he can't. But he doesn't need to be. With this logic you cannot be "in a room". You are only in your own skin without the ability to see or experience outside of your own body. Believing that he is everywhere at once has some pantheistic baggage...not to mention not giving God any control over his own whereabouts. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 No, you added "with" our spirit. Your text says "in spirit." You can't take one part of the verse literally but not the other.It depends on the translation.I do worship God in spirit. I don't understand why that requires me to be dead. Link to comment
juliann Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I believe God took on flesh to provide atonement for our sins and so that we will be resurrected from the dead. Furthermore, so that we can have a relationship with God the Father through Christ. So do Mormons. Link to comment
Maureen Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Brent:So I must die before I can pray? tss - You are a human being; man/woman. Therefore you have a body, soul and spirit. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out how we can have a relationship with God if we have that spiritual connection.M. I do have a relationship with God, but that does not require God to have once been a man like me. Humans have a spirit because we are made in the image of God. Our bodies, however, are not in His likeliness. God is a Spirit.I still do not understand the point you're trying to make. Just so we're clear - I'm agreeing with you Brent.I believe we are made in a Trinitarian type image like God - body, soul and spirit. Therefore I agree that it is possible for us mere humans to converse with our divine spiritual God because we too are spiritual.M. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 If God has a physical body, how can He be in more than one place at once? Bodily, he can't. But he doesn't need to be. With this logic you cannot be "in a room". You are only in your own skin without the ability to see or experience outside of your own body. Believing that he is everywhere at once has some pantheistic baggage...not to mention not giving God any control over his own whereabouts. Are you suggesting God is not all-powerful? Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 I'll check back in later. Link to comment
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