Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

TheQuestioner

Darker skin from iniquity?

Recommended Posts

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 5:21

Share this post


Link to post

Prejudice was a useful thing to keep his people seperate from more wicked persons. Why would allowing them to remain the same race be better? The intermingling between the extremely wicked & rightious would be impossible to detect.

What's so troubling about the verse? And why can't one describe the color of their skin as white or delightsome, or black & delightsome? I would much prefer to allow the Nephites to be allowed to honestly use racial expressions popular to their culture.

Sincerely,

Dale

Share this post


Link to post

TQ,

Did you read the link provided by jschner, what particular arguements did you find less then compelling?

Is there a need to actually have a dsicussion on this, specifically do you really intend to have a discussion?

Share this post


Link to post

So you believe that they were basically darkened so that the Nephites would not mix with them and fall into their disobedience?

This is not the explanation for all non-whites though is it?

Share this post


Link to post

My explanation is that in the Book of Mormon it says that "the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a

Share this post


Link to post
TQ,

Did you read the link provided by jschner, what particular arguements did you find less then compelling?

Is there a need to actually have a dsicussion on this, specifically do you really intend to have a discussion?

I agree with Hawkeye.

Questioner,

You should really take the time, perhaps even a day to off and on read the link Hawkeye posted in response to your question.

If you read the article, I'm sure allot of questions you have will be answered.

Please take the time.

I know you have a ton of questions, I know its more interesting to have a discussion with "real" people instead of reading some longwinded article.

But in this case, you should really take the time to read the link.

I say this to you in an most affectionate and caring manner.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as condenscending.

Share this post


Link to post
So you believe that they were basically darkened so that the Nephites would not mix with them and fall into their disobedience?

This is not the explanation for all non-whites though is it?

Exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 5:21

I guess some people would have prefered that God gave the wicked Lamanites Dumbo Ears and a Jay Leno Chin to distinguish them from the Nephites. The darkend skin was not the curse but was the sign of the curse...big distinction.

Share this post


Link to post
I know I've seen groups of people being made darker in the book of mormon.

Explain this

I've seen it in the Bible. Why haven't you? It shouldn't have to be explained. That was the verbiage and understanding of ancients.

Share this post


Link to post
The darkend skin was not the curse but was the sign of the curse...big distinction.

I don't think that there is much difference...it still sounds ugly. Until we are sure what is meant by the Bible and BOM references, I think it better not to make implications based on pigment. It leads into pointless how many angels can dance on the head of a pin kind of issues:

If God cursed Ham and the curse was blackness so that all of his children came out black, then what shade of black would they be? Black people come in every shade-but if God cursed Ham, it would mean that every cursed black person would have to be the same shade

Share this post


Link to post
where have you seen it in the bible?

Ya know....I think this is a great exercise for you. You need to study up. I'm shocked that you are questioning Mormons when you aren't even familiar with the Bible! Give us a minimum of three verses in the Bible that associate skin color with a behavior or attribute and explain it.

OK...I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. This topic gets recycled every other week as if pre-existent Mormons somehow caused the brutality and racial issues that resulted in slavery. This is just some....

Many shall be purified, and made white

Share this post


Link to post

No, you said they were in there. I think you should easily know where they are. I did read the whole bible all the way through this year. I do not remember seeing that there. Of course, there are a lot of things I forget from one full reading.

Share this post


Link to post

I think we posted on top of each other...see my edit.

Share this post


Link to post

Daniel 12:10.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

this does not sound like it's referring to skin color.

The NIV translates it as spotless and refined rather than white and tried.

Of course white represents purity.

Job 30:26, 30.

Job 30:26 has nothing to do with it.

When I looked for good, then evil came [unto me]: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.

As to the other verse Job 30:30

This is the closest thing to it. I'm not sure what it means. It sounds like he was in the sun too long, but I dunno if this was literal either. hmm...

KJV: My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.

NIV: My skin grows black and peels, my body burns with fever.

Joel 2:6. I don't think this means literally there skin turned black.

KJV: Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

NIV: At the sight of them, nations are in anguish, every face turns pale.

Psalms 51:7. This seems like another play on the light and darkness theme

Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Share this post


Link to post

Job 30:30 seems to be referring to diesease. I found something about disease on three different websites.

"Black" in Job 30:30 means dirty, blackened by sorrow and disease.

Share this post


Link to post
this does not sound like it's referring to skin color.

Neither do the BOM references.

The NIV translates it as spotless and refined rather than white and tried.

That should give you a clue as to what the purpose of the metaphor is.

Of course white represents purity.

And of course black represents....?

I don't think this means literally there skin turned black.

No one does.

This seems like another play on the light and darkness theme

You nailed it.

Job 30:30 seems to be referring to diesease.

Was disease ever thought to be a result of righteousness? Was "black" skin, body, face used to refer to anything positive in the Bible? If the BOM is an ancient text from that culture why should we expect anything different? Wouldn't an enlightened "we are the world" version be an indication that it was not an ancient text?

Share this post


Link to post
I don't think this means literally there skin turned black.

No one does.

juliann,

You seem to be claiming that no one (who is educated/has studied) thinks the Book of Mormon says God turned the Lamanites' skins literally darker. I disagree. Especially since, *unlike* the Bible verses you quoted, the Book of Mormon is very specific about the mark/curse and is not speaking metaphorically.

Further, while I think many of the Nephites were probably racist, I don't see the prophets who wrote about these things as such. For example, Jacob telling the Nephites to not hate their brethren for their skin color. Etc...

Best,

Pace

Share this post


Link to post

One of the strongest indications that the color terms in the Book of Mormon have nothing to do with skin color is that it is impossible to find any actions that result from skin color differences. The most remarkable is the case where Captain Moroni looks for a Lamanite to perpetrate a deception on Lamanite guards. Moroni sends two Nephites with him. Had there been a skin color difference the ruse would have been up immediately.

"Skin of blackness" is no more literal than "faces shall gather blackness."

Most ancient peoples were racist - but not on the basis of skin color. They used all sorts of reasons and typically didn't need much. However, skin color wasn't that important. This is a modern misreading that is imposed on the text.

Share this post


Link to post

Brant,

First, it doesn't say Moroni sent Nephites with the Lamanite (and. it doesn't say they only found one Lamanite among them, or didn't find Lemuelites, or Ishmaelites, etc...). Second, even if they had sent Nephites with him they could have "marked" those Nephites just like other apostates had done (except not with permanent ink)--and suddenly your example is negated. And third, perhaps the whole story has absolutely nothing to do with coloring at all, and they just needed a pure Lamanite who had been raised in that culture due to linguistic reasons so they would believe he was a Lamanite due to his language, rather than a spy. As it stands, you are arguing from a verse that doesn't speak to this issue one way or another.

You also wrote:

"Skin of blackness" is no more literal than "faces shall gather blackness."
If that was all the Book of Mormon said on the subject you would be correct. But it isn't. The Book of Mormon does not use a set phrase, and often talks about their "skins" in a literal sense (as far as I can tell). For example, see the scripture quoted by stn9 from Alma 3:6. It speaks of their skins having a *mark* of darkness set upon them. One also has to remember the fact that this mark was placed so the Nephites wouldn't mingle with the Lamanites. If it was PURELY a metaphorical darkness, with no physical counterpart, then the fact that the Nephites would be repulsed by the darkness of the Lamanites makes much less sense.

Now, whether the mark was actually pigment change in their skin, or they just wore clothing (i.e. skins) made from gross animals, or whatever, I don't know. But trying to read these scriptures in a purely metaphorical way does not work, if we take them as a whole.

Best,

Pace

Edited to add a "not" to the last sentence.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't think you can have it both ways. If you believe this is an ancient text then you have to treat it as an ancient text. Thus, unless you can come up with an explanation of why the Bible references are metaphor and the BOM are not, I don't see where there is to go with this one when the BOM does not make the distinction of skin color with Lamanites/Nephites in the rest of the narrative and in fact changes to a political distinction.

I am sure that these various authors had varying reactions to nationality ("racism" was nationalism in that era). I am also sure that skin color did change...but through intermarriage with an existing population. The OT did not treat those who married out of the covenant well...there are typical pejoratives used to describe them. The BOM is not atypical in using the same stereotypes.

There is only one reference to skin in the BOM. I think that is a mighty small hook to hang this huge of a conclusion on when the Bible says Job's skin was black as well. We have got to stop the double standard stuff and act on our belief the BOM is an ancient text.

Share this post


Link to post

juliann,

don't think you can have it both ways. If you believe this is an ancient text then you have to treat it as an ancient text.
Agreed.
Thus, unless you can come up with an explanation of why the Bible references are metaphor and the BOM are not, I don't see where there is to go with this one when the BOM does not make the distinction of skin color with Lamanites/Nephites in the rest of the narrative and in fact changes to a political distinction.
I can think of a lot of reasons actually. A few I mentioned in my previous posts. Another is that the phraseology in the BOM is different than in the Bible. And that the verses you quoted come from specifically poetic/metaphorical parts of the Bible.
I am sure that these various authors had varying reactions to nationality ("racism" was nationalism in that era). I am also sure that skin color did change...but through intermarriage with an existing population. The OT did not treat those who married out of the covenant well...there are typical pejoratives used to describe them. The BOM is not atypical in using the same stereotypes.
I don't think the BOM uses the same stereotypes at all. In fact, it seems to treat the Gentiles as a people loved of the Lord.
There is only one reference to skin in the BOM. I think that is a mighty small hook to hang this huge of a conclusion on when the Bible says Job's skin was black as well. We have got to stop the double standard stuff and act on our belief the BOM is an ancient text.
Your search parameters were off. There are many more than one reference to "skin" or "skins" in the BOM. Here they are:

1 Nephi 17:11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Jacob 3:8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.

9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.

Enos 1:20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.

Mosiah 17:13 And it came to pass that they took him and bound him, and scourged his skin with faggots, yea, even unto death.

Alma 3:5 Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth.

6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

Alma 20:29 And when Ammon did meet them he was exceedingly sorrowful, for behold they were naked, and their skins were worn exceedingly because of being bound with strong cords. And they also had suffered hunger, thirst, and all kinds of afflictions; nevertheless they were patient in all their sufferings.

Alma 43:20 Now the army of Zerahemnah was not prepared with any such thing; they had only their swords and their cimeters, their bows and their arrows, their stones and their slings; and they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins; yea, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites;

Alma 44:18 But behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites; yea, behold they were pierced and smitten, yea, and did fall exceedingly fast before the swords of the Nephites; and they began to be swept down, even as the soldier of Moroni had prophesied.

Alma 49:6 Now the leaders of the Lamanites had supposed, because of the greatness of their numbers, yea, they supposed that they should be privileged to come upon them as they had hitherto done; yea, and they had also prepared themselves with shields, and with breastplates; and they had also prepared themselves with garments of skins, yea, very thick garments to cover their nakedness.

3 Nephi 2:15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;

3 Nephi 4:7 And it came to pass that they did come up to battle; and it was in the sixth month; and behold, great and terrible was the day that they did come up to battle; and they were girded about after the manner of robbers; and they had a lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn, and they had head-plates upon them; and great and terrible was the appearance of the armies of Giddianhi, because of their armor, and because of their being dyed in blood.

So, it appears that the Book of Mormon consistently refers to skin as actual physical skin (either from an animal or a person's own skin).

Best,

Pace

Share this post


Link to post

People seem to be missing the metaphor of the Garment here!

Jacob 3:8 is a perfect example of this!

The garment, or "skin" that the Lord provided Adam and Eve is what is being referenced here. When one sins a greavous sin they lose the priviledge of wearing the Garment. Which in the judgment of Revelation one must have this "white" Garment to attend the wedding feast of the Lord.

This is also wrapped up in the metaphor of dawning "sack cloth" and throwing dust in the air as a sign of morning. Widows in the catholic church dawning black for the rest of their life.

Satan is even portyed as wearing a "black" skin that represents his priesthood and power.

If anything this is a direct link and a hit for the ancientness of the BOM literature.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×