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Moksha

Apostle of Color

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The unspoken

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Is this related to God finally realizing the time was right to allow men of African ancestry to hold the priesthood?

Not really. For faithful Latter-day Saints, God sets the time, God knows the time, and God calls the man. That's the whole point. Apostleship is not a group entitlement. Church leadership is not a matter of political calculation.

Would I be delighted to see a non-white apostle? Yes. Do I think it's my place to call him, or to agitate for his call? No. Am I a racist? No. Was it just for you to suggest that people who hold views like mine on this issue are racists? No.

Is the best way to address this question to attack me, or is that just the way of the Apologist?

I haven't attacked you. You're not a victim. Nor have I invited you to make baseless, broad, and broadly hostile generalizations about an entire group of people. (You're opposed to racism, right?) Yet you've done that twice now, on this very thread.

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If only the apostles were dieing faster...

Come on guys - Ray was make a very pointed statement at the sillyness of Moksha's "directive" for the church.

I'm surprissed that Moksha stopped with color - what about gender, income bracket, political party, age, and sexual orientation? You are leaving out a lot of groups Moksha - how un-PC of you, for shame!

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Come on guys - Ray was make a very pointed statement at the sillyness of Moksha's "directive" for the church.

I'm surprissed that Moksha stopped with color - what about gender, income bracket, political party, age, and sexual orientation? You are leaving out a lot of groups Moksha - how un-PC of you, for shame!

Don't forget about young people! :-P

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I hit a vein of unresolved racism in this crowd, eh?

Folks with resolved racism would immediately recognize the benefits the Church would accrue through having an Apostle of color.

The only racism Ive seen in this thread is the assumption that The Lord needs to call some Apostles of other races because apparently the Twelve aren't diverse enough. Quite frankly I don't know why you even look at the world through the color of race. People are people. Who cares what their skin looks like?

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The church gave the Priesthood to non-white males less than 30 years ago, and yet there has already been several of them in the 70s for several years. Doesn't that mean anything?

Not exactly accurate. Non-white males have had the priesthoods since the begining. there was only one group of people that didn't then all the other races had it.

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I am not sure if skin color is all that important to the Lord, what I think the Lord really looks for in an apostle is some sort of insurance/business background. That is what is really important. :P

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I am not sure if skin color is all that important to the Lord, what I think the Lord really looks for in an apostle is some sort of insurance/business background.  That is what is really important.  :P

As in, say, Elders Maxwell (educator), Packer (educator), Oaks (university president), Holland (university president), Eyring (university president), Bednar (university president), Scott (nuclear engineer), and Nelson (heart surgeon)?

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I can imagine the discussion among the First Presidency and the Council of the 12, next time they must choose a new Apostle. The President will get a piece of paper out and explain:

"All right brethren. Here's the breakdown of our membership according to race. Yes I know, Elder Nelson, we preach non-racism, but as the leaders, we have to face the facts. So here goes (then gives the different percentages). This means that ideally we 15 should be as follow (my made-up numbers) : 2 whites, 3 Blacks, 3 Indian-Americans preferably from South America, 3 Pacific Islanders, (and so on). So I suggest we plan a way to implement those statistics."

And then, in each successive meeting to choose new Apostles, only candidates of a certain race will be considered, so as not to disrupt the fragile balance. Of course, this balance will also have to be carefully re-balanced as the proportions of each group change in the membership.

Should the number of ethnic groups ever come to exceed 15 (which should come quite quickly), a rotation would have to be established.

The time any Apostle spends in the council will also have to be considered. Possibly, being in the First Presidency might give additional points to an ethnic group, and even more so being the Prophet.

Those rules would most probably mean that no white males would be called to be Apostle for quite some time, so as to compensate for their over-representation during almost 200 years.

Does anyone see any additional rules that should be considered? We could send them to the First Presidency, in order to help them make a wise and, er, inspired choice next time.

:P<_<:unsure:

Del

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Now, I don't think the church is quite strong enough to handle a black leader just yet.
Really? In what areas do you think this would create a problem? (I can see if they were immediately appointed to be President as it might harm missionary efforts in places where prejudice against blacks still runs strong such as Russia, but as a Twelve where people have time to get used to it?)

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Moksha,

I think that the new German apostle Dieter Uchdorf is more controversial, or unifying than a Spanish one, or an African American one.

That is if you are looking for shock value, well the church has got it!

Think about it, the gospel is to also be proclaimed to the Jews.

Get it?

A German apostle bearing testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ to Jewish people.

Interesting.

I'm sure the Lord didn't choose Uchdorf because of his Nationailty, perhaps just because the man has a good heart?

Not the color of his skin, nor nationality. :P

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We had this conversation before and we all said the reason why there isn't an ethnic apostle is because the white seniority isn't dieing fast enough to allow the ethnic guys move up ranks fast enough.

Thats not a bad thing, but it is how it is, the white seniority has such long longevities that its a matter of time, a side from a matter of getting a call. To get an ethnic Apostle, they'd need to die faster, hence the comment to Moksha marked by rolling eyes. " :P "

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I'm surprissed that Moksha stopped with color - what about gender, income bracket, political party, age, and sexual orientation? You are leaving out a lot of groups Moksha - how un-PC of you, for shame!

How about a lesbian, Black, vegetarian, female? would that satisfy the diversity people?

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I'm surprissed that Moksha stopped with color - what about gender, income bracket, political party, age, and sexual orientation? You are leaving out a lot of groups Moksha - how un-PC of you, for shame!

How about a lesbian, Black, vegetarian, female? would that satisfy the diversity people?

:P

awesome.

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I didn't know we got to tell God who was going to lead the Church. We could have had an Osmond in there!!

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How about a lesbian, Black, vegetarian, female? would that satisfy the diversity people?
Yes that would be a good start. We could place bets on how long she would be an apostle before she was excommunicated. I would probably place my bet somewhere in the 43 to 44 second range. :P

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How about a lesbian, Black, vegetarian, female? would that satisfy the diversity people?

Funny how I can practically hear the sneer when some people use the word "diversity."

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Just be thankful that I'm not the presidant or an apostle.

Imagine, a prophet who has his own planet where he's king and has a paradise, except for blood thirsty lightbulbs that throw fireballs.

Now guys, lets sustain me as the new prophet, seer, and revelator.

I should change my name to Presidant Jigglysaint.

Hey, Shady Oaks needs a temple too....

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being a (black) Mormon for 24 years, I find myself puzzled that I have never lost sleep over whether there is an "Apostle of Color" (I did have a mission pres. who was called to be a seventy while he was mission pres.) - I've also never thought it was "a" mark of a ....(my quote) "progressive, relevant" church to "reflect the diversity of the country/world" - I have met quite a few G.A.'s over the past 24 yrs and they all share one characteristic that commends them to their calling - their unflagging love of the Savior and commitment to testifying of Him to the world, in addition to their love of the people they meet in their calling....

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As in, say, Elders Maxwell (educator), Packer (educator), Oaks (university president), Holland (university president), Eyring (university president), Bednar (university president), Scott (nuclear engineer), and Nelson (heart surgeon)?

Don't forget Faust (lawyer)

Pres. James E. Faust and elder John Groberg spoke today at my uncle's funeral. Several of their comments were pertinent to this topic but really hard to get in context here.

My uncle's family (and mine) are multi-racial. Pres. Faust and elder Groberg commented on it; Pres. Faust said they looked like the U.N., they both emphasized that no one ever need feel alone or excluded in Christ's church, no matter what they look like. "You belong" was repeated several times. It's really impossible to get the feel of the meeting in a short post. Cynic's may find the printed words condescending but it wasn't at all. Also the lesson was taught that true family resemblance is in the heart, not what we look like on the outside. This applies especially to God's family. My uncle's made a great object lesson.

BTW my uncle had a philosophy and faith that should be emulated by all scholars. He was a well-known university professor, many very well respected books and articles, used in university courses, etc.. He was quoted at the funeral as having said;

"I wouldn't give fifty cents for the enduring truth of anything I've written, but I'd stake my life on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon."

And, lest anyone think they can pigeonhole him, he was a liberal democrat :P .

The lesson I took away was; there's room in the church for everyone, and a testimony and our status as God's children does not depend on politics, race, background, or anything else but faith in Christ and a desire to know the truth.

There is no racism at the highest levels of the church. No one who was at the funeral today could doubt that.

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Funny how I can practically hear the sneer when some people use the word "diversity."

MC there are posters here that whenever they talk about the church it is with sneer - you should know that.

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1 Kings 19:11-13, in the Cynically Revised King James Version:
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord.

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I've also never thought it was "a" mark of a ....(my quote) "progressive, relevant" church to "reflect the diversity of the country/world" - I have met quite a few G.A.'s over the past 24 yrs and they all share one characteristic that commends them to their calling - their unflagging love of the Savior and commitment to testifying of Him to the world, in addition to their love of the people they meet in their calling....

whatatimetolive:

What a sweet thing to notice about our General Authorities. It is their hearts we should be looking to and not the color of their skin. I agree.

I also wanted to state here that Larry King asked President Hinckley if there would ever be a black Prophet----here is what he said:

EDITED because what I previously posted as being the copy of the conversation didn't sit well in my mind as what I remembered hearing---I loathe reporters taking license with others' words! ..... here is the transcript from CNN------

KING: How is the Church doing with black membership?

HINCKLEY: Wonderfully. Wonderfully. I was in Africa last January, dedicated a temple in Accra, Ghana. We have a great facility there.

I'll be back in Nigeria sometime this coming year to dedicate a new temple there. And that temple will be devoted almost exclusively for the work that black people will do there.

KING: Do you envision someday a black prophet?

HINCKLEY: Could well be within the realm of possibility.

KING: So you've come a long way in that regard.

HINCKLEY: We've come a long way.

I recall sitting listening and watching as President Hinckley said this with a smile on his face. He knows that all things are possible with the Lord and that when the right man comes along to be made Prophet, he will be called, regardless of the color of his skin.

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