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Neighbor

The LDS gospel of eternal progression-

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I like it ... it sounds like Gen 1:2

You are correct, like all ancient Near Eastern texts Genesis and the Wisdom of Solomon profess the creation of the world

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Parupunte_Medapani  writes,

The "Foreknowledge" interpretation is nothing more than an alternative interpretation. 

It is an interpretation that reveals that the Bible does not teach pre-existance like the Mormon Church teaches.

And if I made up an interpretation that said the Catholic Church was false and you are an idiot the mere existence of that interpretation wouldn't make it true. Which is essentially what you are implying here.

Get with it Johnny. Universal standards, not double standards. And nobody here is going to accept the CCC as authoritative anymore than you accept the BoM as authoritative.

I dont accept all that the RCC does, but I do agree with Johnny on this interpretation.

The point I was trying to make is that there are two seemingly valid interpretations and Johnny is treating it as though the alternative is a proof text against the LDS view.

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enummaelish  writes,

You are correct, like all ancient Near Eastern texts Genesis and the Wisdom of Solomon profess the creation of the world

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I dont accept all that the RCC does, but I do agree with Johnny on this interpretation.

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Zakuska  writes,

Mal 2

1 AND now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

Did not God "create" these priests by begetting them with his Gospel?

It has nothing to do with GOd creating their Imortal spirits.

How does Mal 2:1 relate with the words of verse 10 which say "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? "

God did not "create" these priests by begetting them with his gospel ... in the New Testament men are begotten through the gospel.

Mal 2:10 is not talking about creating immortal spirits but is talking about "creating" or "willing" men.

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Which comes right before God creates out of nothingess see the following link for more discussion:

I would suggest that you may wish to actually consider the historical development of the non-biblical doctrine you profess. Your view of creation does not appear in Jewish thought until the later influence of Hellenization.

The King James version sounds a little different:

Yet the KJV still preserves the correct view. Ultimately, you are going to have to ask yourself the question,

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enummaelish  writes,

I have to ask, when did the soul prove worthy to enter an undefiled body if there was no preexistence? At what point in its existence did the soul prove itself good. I suppose you can see why scholars interpret this verse as a reference to preexistence. The quandary that you and Johnny face with Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 obviously relates to the disciples

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I notice you had to go to the Apocrapha to get any kind of support. Is it part of your gospel?

I do believe that the Apocrypha has great historical and spiritual value, yet I do not need to solely rely upon the Wisdom of Solomon to support my view. I would invite you to read my initial post on this thread.

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enummaelish  writes,

I would suggest that you may wish to actually consider the historical development of the non-biblical doctrine you profess. Your view of creation does not appear in Jewish thought until the later influence of Hellenization. 

What is your point. As a Catholic I believe divine assistance is given to the church. The Catholic Church has a living Magisterium that leads to better understanding.

Yet the KJV still preserves the correct view. Ultimately, you are going to have to ask yourself the question,

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Zakuska  writes,

It has everything to do with it Johnny. One God has created all men. Because he Created the physical body of Adam. But it has nothing to do with Adams spirit that already existed.

Adam's soul did not always exist.

Second... the Gosepl has always begotten men to God. Even in the OT.

Do you believe that in the Old Testament it was possiable to be "born again"?

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And I have to answer ... Rom 8 and Luke 1 reveals how. Those called, like the prophet John the Baptist, whom he foreknew he filled with the Holy Ghost, even from their mother's womb

I love the KJV, but even it does not support the view you suggest. Simply filling the child with the Holy Ghost while in his mother

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enummaelish  writes,

I love the KJV, but even it does not support the view you suggest. Simply filling the child with the Holy Ghost while in his mother

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Predestination and foreknowledge is supported by the Bible.

Once again, your views are not Biblical but Augustinian. Foreknowledge is supported in the Bible, whereas predestination in the Catholic tradition is not. The Greek word that the KJV renders predestined in Romans 8:29 can also mean foreordain:

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enummaelish writes,

Once again, your views are not Biblical but Augustinian. Foreknowledge is supported in the Bible, whereas predestination in the Catholic tradition is not.

My views are Catholic and Biblical. Here is how foreknowledge and predesination as applied to Mary in the Churches teachings:

To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace (CCC600). "God sent forth his Son", but to prepare a body for him, [Gal 4:4; Heb 10:5] he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, "a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary": [Lk 1:26-27] The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life. [LG 56; cf. LG 61] (CCC488).

To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." [LG 56] The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace". [Lk 1:28] In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace. (CCC490). The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". [LG 53, 56] The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love". [Cf. Eph 1:3-4] (CCC492).

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My views are Catholic and Biblical. Here is how foreknowledge and predesination as applied to Mary in the Churches teachings:

Just for the record: The moment you have to result to Catholic interpretation rather than dealing with the text as it stands, I declare victory, since from my perspective, Catholic traditions have absolutely no spiritual or historical validity. I still love you though and appreciate the fun dialogue.

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enummaelish writes,

Just for the record: The moment you have to result to Catholic interpretation rather than dealing with the text as it stands, I declare victory

Just for the record: what scriptures did I not deal with.

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According to Proverbs 8, Wisdom as a personified woman existed prior to God

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BCSpace  writes,

However, imho the most robust verse for the pre-mortal existence is actually Genesis 2:1 in which we see a host of people (check your Lexicon) being created before Adam was placed on the earth.

Why would you say "a host of people" ... I would say "a host of angels"?

Do you know of any verse that would reveal that an angel like Micharel the Archangel can become a mortal man like Adam?

The lexicon says:

1 ) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host

a ) army, host

1 ) host (of organised army)

2 ) host (of angels)

3 ) of sun, moon, and stars

4 ) of whole creation

b ) war, warfare, service, go out to war

c ) service

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Are not men the Angels of God?

Ps. 104: 4

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Heb. 1: 7

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Rev 1

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Zakuska  writes,

Are not men the Angels of God?

Men can be "angels" or messengers but angels like Michael the Archangel do not become mortal men like Adam who die.

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Prove it.

Philo of Alexandria - Calls Christ (the Logos) the cheif of the archangels, and he became man. He is the second God.

Micheal the archangel are placed in the bodies of Men like Adam... who die and are later ressurected. Like God.

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