The LDS gospel of eternal progression-

[BCSpace]

However, imho the most robust verse for the pre-mortal existence is actually Genesis 2:1 in which we see a host of people (check your Lexicon) being created before Adam was placed on the earth. 

Why would you say "a host of people" ... I would say "a host of angels"?

Yes, a trintarian would have to assume angels, but it doesn't follow from the primary definition in the Lexicon and the usage, either Strong's or Thayer's:

tsaba' tsaw-baw' or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; a mass of persons.

Angels and humans are the same type of being anyway according to Hebrews 1 etc. so an angelic assumption doesn't help your case anyway.

[johnny]

BCSpace  writes,

Yes, a trintarian would have to assume angels, but it doesn't follow from the primary definition in the Lexicon and the usage, either Strong's or Thayer's:

It fit's the primary defination nicely, for example Michael the Archangel is part of this host.

Angels and humans are the same type of being anyway according to Hebrews 1 etc. so an angelic assumption doesn't help your case anyway.

Angels do not become mortal humans who die ... humans that die can become "angels" or ministers.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Philo of Alexandria - Calls Christ (the Logos) the cheif of the archangels, and he became man. He is the second God.

Christ was "the Word" prior to his incarnation. Christ is "the chief" in terms of hierarchy. He is the second God just like the Nicene Creed reveals ... God from God but this does not mean two God's.

Nicene Creed

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.

Micheal the archangel are placed in the bodies of Men like Adam... who die and are later ressurected. Like God

Do you know of any scriptures to support the LDS view that angels are placed in bodies of men and later die like a mortal man?

[Zakuska]

Sure Johnny,

Why are human beings called the Angels of the devil?

Matt. 25: 41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Little Children are called the Angels of God...

Matt. 18: 10

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these alittle ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Christ comes with his Angels and who are they?

Matt. 25: 31

31

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Why are human beings called the Angels of the devil?

I have no problem with human beings being called "angels" ... my point is that angels do not become mortal humans who die ... humans that die can become "angels" or ministers.

Do you you know of any scriptures that support the LDS teaching that Michael the Archangel became the man Adam?

[Zakuska]

Sure Johnny...

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES

ARCHANGEL

See also Adam; Michael

Michael, or Adam, is the archangel or chief angel.

The Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, 1 Thes. 4: 16. Michael is the archangel, Jude 1: 9 (D&C 29: 26; 88: 112; 128: 20-21).

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES

ADAM

See also Adam-ondi-Ahman; Archangel; Eden; Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve; Michael

The first man created on earth.

Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. His transgression in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3; D&C 29: 40-42; Moses 4) caused him to

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Michael, or Adam, is the archangel or chief angel. 

From the list you provided I still do not see any Bible scriptures that support the LDS teaching that an angel like Michael can become a man like Adam?

Angels do not become mortal humans who die ... humans that die can become "angels" or messengers.

[Zakuska]

Johnny... What can I say if you won't read the links TO NON LDS sources I provide you?

You want Bible verses... here you go.

Serious scholarship widely acknowledges the doctrine of individual pre-existence to be a genuine, early Christian teaching [1].

Even prior to Christianity, "the idea that certain things pre-exist in the mind of God or in heaven has a long history in the Biblical and early Jewish traditions" [2]. "According to the theory held by the ancient Jews and the whole of the Semitic nations, everything of real value that from time to time appears on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity" [3]. By the time of apocalyptic (ca. 200 BC to 200 AD) pre-existence had become a "commonplace" concept [4]; hence, "to affirm that the Jews in Christ's time did not believe in pre-existence is simply inaccurate" [5].

"Knowledge of this history is essential for an understanding of the idea of pre-existence in the New Testament" [6], for the early Church shared the same teaching [7, and continued to do so until it was condemned by the Council of Constantinople in AD 553. Origen, the greatest of early Church theologians, declared that he still favoured the doctrine (De Principis I.7:4-5; III.5:4), as did Justin Martyr, Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Pierus, John of Jerusalem, Rufinius, Nemesius, and the Western Church generally until the time of Gregory the Great [8].

The Semites generally believed that the models for earthly things pre-exist in heaven [9], as, for example, the author of Exodus 25:9, who described the heavenly Tabernacle as a pattern for the Tent in the wilderness. The prophets likewise taught that the heavenly world contained in advance everything that was to appear on earth [10](see, for example, Ps.11:3-4 cp. Jer.25:30; Ps.139:8; 103:19; Isa.6; Jer.1; Ezek.1). Certain Babylonian tablets even went so far as to suggest that the souls of the first couple (which had the cuneiform sign for deity before their names) were derived from the blood of slain gods [11]indicating the heavenly pre-existence of the nephesh, or the "soul" (cp. Gen.9:4).

Job 15:7 contains an early reference to the pre-existence of Adam, who was "created before the hills". Jeremiah 1:5 similarly speaks of the pre-existence of the prophet whom God "knew before he was formed in the womb" (cp. also Ps.139:15). Philo [12], and Josephus [13] show that this belief was still active in late Judaism, which in certain quarters held that the soul had an immortal existence before it was drawn into a body, whence it longs to return after death. Indeed, the doctrine of the soul's pre-existence remained basic to Judaism as late as the Talmudic era (2nd to 5th centuries), as numerous Talmudic and Amoraic writings show [14].

The area of greatest contact between Jewish and Christian pre-existence doctrines was in the literature of the apocalyptic, which taught that the entire Community of Israel (later the Church) had a corporate pre-existence in heaven. This becomes the "pre-existent Church", or "Heavenly Jerusalem" of Gal.4:26, Rev.21:2, 4 Ezra 7:26, 2 Clem.14:1, the Shepherd of Hermas V.2.4:1, etc. [15], whose members were sent to earth as "colonists from heaven" (hence the NCCG use of "colonies" for congregations) to preoare for the establishment of God's kingdom [16].

This heavenly corporeity was further characterised by the term "mystery", referring to the "hidden pre-existent things" [17], an expression which has recently been shown to derive from the Old Testament (OT) idea of the "Heavenly Council" (Heb. sowd) [18], which in turn became the "mystery" of the New Testament (NT) [19], or the revelation of God's "secrets", to which the prophets gained access when they were supernaturally "caught up" (2 Cor.12:2-4 cp. Amos 3:7; 1 Ki.22:19-22; Jer.23:18) [20].

Man's derivation from this Heavenly Council (= the "pre-existent Church") was a frequent subject in apocalyptic literature, as, for example in 1 Enoch 62:7-8, which describes the Son of Man (Christ) together with the "Congregation of the Elect" before their sowing on earth; or in the Qumran "Hymn Scroll", which speaks of the pre-existent Community as "a Mystery ...a tree fed from a secret spring" (1QH 8:4-11), and a "congregation of thy Holy Ones" which "thou hast established from before eternity" (13:7-10). The early Christian Odes of Solomon (70-100 AD) also describe the pre-existent Church as a Community of "fruit-bearing trees", whose crown is "self-grown", and whose roots are "from an immortal land", watered by a "river of gladness" (Ode 11).

This distinctive imagery, by the way, proves that the Nag Hammadi texts had their origins in the apocalyptic milieu of the Church, for we read in them the same description of man's origin from a "divine spring which is not diminished by the water that flows from it" [21], or the eternal "fountain issuing forth from God", which is the "root of those who are planted" [22], i.e. Israel/the Church.

Yah'shua (Jesus) also referred to the mysterious heavenly sources when he declared, My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36), since it originated "out of the world...before the world was" (John 17:5-6). The disciples, too, "are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (v.16), having been "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (2 Thess.2:13).

This pre-existent choice is further spoken of in Romans 8:28-30, where God before creation "called those whom He predestined to conform to the image of His Son", proving that "the elect really existed when the choice was made" [23].

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

You want Bible verses... here you go.

Which of the the Bible verses reveal?

- pre-existense as taught by the Mormon Church

- that angels, like Michael, can become men, like Adam

How many more Bible verses and Catholic Fathers do you want me to quote Johnny?

Again which of the the Bible verses and the Catholic Fathers reveal?

- pre-existense as taught by the Mormon Church

- that angels, like Michael, can become men, like Adam

Is it just me or are Chritsitans choping their foundation out from underneath themselves?

Could you explain what you mean ... thanks ...

[Zakuska]

Johny,

Why am I doing your homework for you?

Origen

Justin Martyr

Augustine

Cyril of Jerusalem

Pierus

John of Jerusalem

Rufinius

Nemesius

and the Western Church generally until the time of Gregory the Great

All beleived the spirit that is in man "pre-exitsted" with God and backed it up with the same verses Mormons do.

[urroner]

luke 11

27

[Zakuska]

Hail Mary full of grace. Blessed are you. etc. etc. etc.

Its better to keep Gods commandments than it is to Hail Mary.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

and the Western Church generally until the time of Gregory the Great

Are you saying at this time that they no longer then believed in pre-exitence?

All beleived the spirit that is in man "pre-exitsted" with God and backed it up with the same verses Mormons do.

Did they believe that "angels", like Michael, become men as the Mormon Church teaches?

[Zakuska]

Zakuska writes,

and the Western Church generally until the time of Gregory the Great

Are you saying at this time that they no longer then believed in pre-exitence?

All beleived the spirit that is in man "pre-exitsted" with God and backed it up with the same verses Mormons do.

Did they believe that "angels", like Michael, become men as the Mormon Church teaches?

Do you beleive in it Johnny?

I rest my case. The Apostasy was ripe. Right on schedule.

Job 15:7 contains an early reference to the pre-existence of Adam, who was "created before the hills". Jeremiah 1:5 similarly speaks of the pre-existence of the prophet whom God "knew before he was formed in the womb" (cp. also Ps.139:15).

How could Adam exist before the hills?

[Calm]

Hail Mary full of grace.  Blessed are you. etc. etc. etc.

Its better to keep Gods commandments than it is to Hail Mary.

"Praise to the Man who communed with Jehovah...."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

[Zakuska]

You dont see the Irony?

What does a Catholic father tell the parishioner to do to take away their sins?

"Go say 20 Hail Marys."

Its better not to sin at all than sin and say the hail marys.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

Do you beleive in it Johnny?

I rest my case. The Apostasy was ripe. Right on schedule.

Their was no apostasy as described by the Mormon Church ... but this off-topic.

> Job 15:7 contains an early reference to the pre-existence of Adam, who was "created before the hills".

How could Adam exist before the hills?

How or does this support the Mormon teaching that Michael the Archangel became Adam?

Job.15

[7] Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

[Zakuska]

How could Adam be created before the hills if his spirit (ie "breath of life" ) Did not pre exist with God for him to breath into the clay he fashion Adams body from.

That was a new one to me too. Id never seen that before.

Here... Is a better Article using only Bible scriptures to Identify Micheal.

http://www.whyprophets.com/prophets/michael.htm

[Calm]

You dont see the Irony?

What does a Catholic father tell the parishioner to do to take away their sins?

"Go say 20 Hail Marys."

Its better not to sin at all than sin and say the hail marys.

My understanding is that absolution is not granted by the devotions, those are for rememberance and penance, much like our own hymns are used at times.

The Catholics on the board can correct me if I am wrong.

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

How could Adam be created before the hills if his spirit (ie "breath of life" ) Did not pre exist with God for him to breath into the clay he fashion Adams body from.

Job 15:7 is asking a question ... it is not saying the Adam was created before the hills.

[Zakuska]

Yes it is asking a question... A rhetorical question.

[Tanyan]

Yes a True Rhetorical Question. Thanks for bringing that out Zakuska .

[Zakuska]

Its funny... people read these "questions" in scripture without asking why they are being asked in the first place.

I mean... In the Garden God asked Adam what he had been doing... why would God even ask Adam this? God knows everything so why would he ask Adam a question that he already knew the answer to? In this case he's reminding them of something they had forgotten.

Paul uses "true" Rhetorical questions all the time.

1 Cor 15

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Its funny... the truth can be staring you in the face and you are unable to see it. Some of Christs Disciples who walked talked and ate with him didn't even recognize the risen Lord till he told them who he was.

[Zakuska]

Ohhh man!!! There is SOOOOOOO much theology wrapped up in that one verse!

Job 15: 7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

First it says the first man Adam was born prior to the foundation of the earth. To be born you have to have "parents" and just who do you think they'd be?

Luke 3:38

It also answers the age old question...

"Did Adam have a Navel?"

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Ohhh man!!! There is SOOOOOOO much theology wrapped up in that one verse!

Read the other verses and the questions that Eliphaz ask Job ...

Do you think the theology is that:

- Job was the first man that born (15:7)

- Job was made before the hills (15:7)

- Job has heard the secrets of God (15:

- that the consolations of God are small with Job (15:11)

Job.15

[1] Then answered Eliphaz the Temanite, and said,

[2] Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind?

[3] Should he reason with unprofitable talk? or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?

[4] Yea, thou castest off fear, and restrainest prayer before God.

[5] For thy mouth uttereth thine iniquity, and thou choosest the tongue of the crafty.

[6] Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips testify against thee.

[7] Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

[8] Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?

[9] What knowest thou, that we know not? what understandest thou, which is not in us?

[10] With us are both the grayheaded and very aged men, much elder than thy father.

[11] Are the consolations of God small with thee? is there any secret thing with thee?

[12] Why doth thine heart carry thee away? and what do thy eyes wink at,

[13] That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?

[14] What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

[15] Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

[16] How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

First it says the first man Adam was born prior to the foundation of the earth. To be born you have to have "parents" and just who do you think they'd be?

It does not say that the Adam was the first man born prior to the foundation of the earth ... Eliphaz is asking Job if he is the first man that was born !!!

It also answers the age old question...

The Lord answers Job and ask Job where was he when he laid the foundations of the earth and when the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job.38

[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[8] Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

[9] When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

[31] Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

[32] Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

[33] Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

[34] Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

[35] Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

[36] Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

[37] Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

[38] When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

[39] Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

[40] When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

[41] Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.