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Neighbor

The LDS gospel of eternal progression-

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The bible teaches that we do not exist until we are created:

"Let this be written for a future generation, that a people not yet created may praise the LORD:" Ps 102:18 (NIV)

"Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me?

Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again?

Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese,

clothe me with skin and flesh and knit me together with bones and sinews?

You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit." Job 10:8-12 (NIV)

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." Ps 139:13-14 (NIV)

Jesus, however, being eternally God, lowered Himself to take on human form:

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! " (NIV) Phil 2:5-8

John 3:31,32; "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony."

John 8:23; "And He said to them, 'You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

8:31-32, "..If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

These are some verses that show mankind is created. Genesis 1-3 discuss the fact that God fromed man our of the dust of the earth in His image and gave man dominion over this earth. Man is dust, formed by God to have being and created to be in His image and rule over creation.

Jesus taught that He alone came down from heaven, not that we all had a pre-existance in heaven with Him or God or during the battle against the third of the host of heaven that rebelled. That battle is where we find ouselves today (in the unseen rhelm).

The reason we call ourselves Christians is because we believe in Jesus Christ, is it not? Then if we believe in Jesus, why not just take His word as true, that we might be free indeed? When we don't believe Jesus it can lead to a binding of Satan that we be blinded to see the truth. When we turn to His word it is because He will heal our minds and hearts and be found faithful on that day.

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Hello Neighbor:

These are some verses that show mankind is created. Genesis 1-3 discuss the fact that God fromed man our of the dust of the earth in His image and gave man dominion over this earth. Man is dust, formed by God to have being and created to be in His image and rule over creation.

Jesus taught that He alone came down from heaven, not that we all had a pre-existance in heaven with Him or God or during the battle against the third of the host of heaven that rebelled. That battle is where we find ouselves today (in the unseen rhelm).

According to Proverbs 8, Wisdom as a personified woman existed prior to God

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Pre-Existance in the Holy Bible:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Obviously refering to Jeremiah pre-existing before he was even formed in his mother's womb. God knew him before he was even formed in his mother's womb. The word "knew" in Hebrew in this verse is the same word for "knew" used for 'Adam "knew" his wife'. It is an intimate form of "knew".

Malachi 1:2-3 and Romans 9:11-13 both state that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau even before they were born. These verses are highly suggestive of the pre-existence of Esau. Origen taught that the pre-existence of souls can be found in both the Old and New Testaments in the story of Esau and Jacob and how God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born. (Malachi 1:2-3) (Romans 9:11-24).

"He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it." - Jesus Christ, Revelation 3:12

Jesus is stating that people were once inhabitants of the temple of God. This is strongly suggestive of pre-existence.

Origen took the following Bible verse as proof of pre-existence:

"He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish in his sight and love." (Ephesians 1:4)

The above verse reveals God choosing people before the world existed and before they could have physically been born. This suggests the people the verse is referring to, must have existed somewhere before.

Psalm 139:15, 16 "Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me."

Acts 17:26 "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

Something I learned from a Jewish friend of mine...

There is an ancient midrash which says that on Mount Sinai...not only were the Israelites there..but also the souls of all future Jewish generations. It is hard to say when it was finally written down....they started writing the Talmud around 100 BCE....but it is probably MUCH older than that. The oral tradition might be hundreds of years older than the actual writing down. Maybe even 1000 yrs older.

Also...

Origen quoted from the Apocryphal "Gospel of Hebrews" where Jacob states:

"I am an angel of God; one of the first order of spirits. Men call me Jacob, but my true name, which God has given me, is Israel."

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John 3 talks about Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, who came to Jesus secretly by night to talk to Him. Nicodemus said "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus said to him "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...... That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again'. The wind blows where it wishes, andyou hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

Gods wisdom is seen most fully in Christ Jesus.

Did not Jesus tell the Jews who did not believe in Him that they were of their father the Devil? (as there are those on earth who are of God and others who are of Satan - does that meen we are of the one we choose to believe? or does that mean that some are created by satan and some are created by God?

I think you are wrestling with the Scriptures a bit too much. When we just take Jesus' words as a child, just trusting in His truth, it is so much easier. Didn't Jesus say we should come to Him as a child?

I know Satan is not creator because Jesus said God is.

Satan twists the word of God and takes away from it and adds to it to deceive men. He did with Adam and Eve and succeeded. Satan tried with Jesus and failed.

How about addressing the topic with the truth as given by Jesus Himself?

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I think you are wrestling with the Scriptures a bit too much. When we just take Jesus' words as a child, just trusting in His truth, it is so much easier. Didn't Jesus say we should come to Him as a child?

The problem of course with your suggestion is that Jesus

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Parupunte_Medapani  writes,

Obviously refering to Jeremiah pre-existing before he was even formed in his mother's womb. God knew him before he was even formed in his mother's womb. The word "knew" in Hebrew in this verse is the same word for "knew" used for 'Adam "knew" his wife'. It is an intimate form of "knew". 

Jeremiah 1:5 is not referring to Jeremiah's pre-existence but reveals that God has foreknowledge.

Malachi 1:2-3 and Romans 9:11-13 both state that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau even before they were born. These verses are highly suggestive of the pre-existence of Esau.

These verses suggests that God has foreknowledge.

Origen taught that the pre-existence of souls can be found in both the Old and New Testaments in the story of Esau and Jacob and how God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born. (Malachi 1:2-3) (Romans 9:11-24).

Souls are created immediately by God.

"He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it." - Jesus Christ, Revelation 3:12

Jesus is stating that people were once inhabitants of the temple of God. This is strongly suggestive of pre-existence.

This verses does not suggest pre-existence.

"He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish in his sight and love." (Ephesians 1:4)

The above verse reveals God choosing people before the world existed and before they could have physically been born. This suggests the people the verse is referring to, must have existed somewhere before.

This verses does not suggest we must have existed somewhere before.

This verses suggests predestination.

Psalm 139:15, 16  ... Acts 17:26 ...

What is your point with these verses?

"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

John 9:1 does not reveal that man pre-existed.

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enummaelish  writes,

According to Proverbs 8, Wisdom as a personified woman existed prior to God

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Hello Johnny:

I hope you're having a good Sunday. :P

Was this "woman" a creature like Satan?

Do you interpret all verses in Proverbs associated with "wisdom" as speaking of a actual creature like Satan?

In the book of Proverbs, the quality of wisdom appears as a woman who associates with the world of humans. The Hebrew sages personified wisdom in their writings as an exalted female figure who called out to men with great words of sagacity and prudence:

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Neighbor quoted: "Let this be written for a future generation, that a people not yet created may praise the LORD:" Ps 102:18 (NIV)

Quick question, how does one "not yet created" prase the LORD?

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Neighbor quoted:  "Let this be written for a future generation, that a people not yet created may praise the LORD:"  Ps 102:18 (NIV)

Quick question, how does one "not yet created" prase the LORD?

HAHAHA! Good one! It implies that they are not yet *physically created* but are spiritually created/begotten/existing and can praise the Lord before their birth.

Exactly.

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enummaelish  writes,

Proverbs 8 presents the personified attribute of wisdom as a woman existing prior to God

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Parupunte_Medapani  writes,

The "Foreknowledge" interpretation is nothing more than an alternative interpretation. 

It is an interpretation that reveals that the Bible does not teach pre-existance like the Mormon Church teaches.

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A... Johnny... Are we not supposed to be relying on the Bible Alone? :P

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Parupunte_Medapani  writes,

HAHAHA! Good one! It implies that they are not yet *physically created* but are spiritually created/begotten/existing and can praise the Lord before their birth. 

Psa 102:18 clearly does not show that they are "spiritually created/begotten/existing and can praise the Lord before their birth".

Pss.102

[18] This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

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Johnny is forgetting what "The breath of Life" is.

Its an immortal spirit. It didnt have a beginning. It will not have an end.

God puts it in a physical body and they twain constitue a living soul.

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Zakuska  writes,

A... Johnny... Are we not supposed to be relying on the Bible Alone?

You forget I am a Catholic ... for a Catholic it is the Bible, Tradition, and the living Magisterium.

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How can I forget you are Catholic?

You strew your posts with catholic interpretation. Which personally. I could care less about.

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Zakuska  writes,

Johnny is forgetting what "The breath of Life" is.

Its an immortal spirit. It didnt have a beginning. It will not have an end.

God puts it in a physical body and they twain constitue a living soul.

"The breath of Life" is not the immortal soul that is created immediately because Adam "became a living soul".

Genesis 2

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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Did I say "the breath of Life" was an imortal soul?

No... I said it was an imortal spirt.

The spirit (ie "breath of life") enters the body and Adam became a living soul.

James 2: 26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Secondly... since God is the father of all spirits... this spirit is part of him and is immortal.

It pre-existed with him while he was preparing the earth. It shouted for joy when the foundation was layed. (Job 38:7)

God does not "create it immediatley" it always existed as did he.

The body and the spirit constitute the immortal soul.

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Zakuska  writes,

Did I say "the breath of Life" was an imortal soul?

No... I said it was an imortal spirt.

The spirit (ie "breath of life") enters the body and Adam became a living soul.

James 2: 26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What is your poinrt ... a body that doesn't have breath is dead.

Secondly... since God is the father of all spirits this spirit is part of him and is immortal.

It pre-erxisted with him while he was preparing the earth. 

"Father of spirits" means that he created them (Mal 2:10) ... it does not mean that man pre-existed.

Malachi 2

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

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Parupunte_Medapani  writes,

The "Foreknowledge" interpretation is nothing more than an alternative interpretation. 

It is an interpretation that reveals that the Bible does not teach pre-existance like the Mormon Church teaches.

And if I made up an interpretation that said the Catholic Church was false and you are an idiot the mere existence of that interpretation wouldn't make it true. Which is essentially what you are implying here.

Get with it Johnny. Universal standards, not double standards. And nobody here is going to accept the CCC as authoritative anymore than you accept the BoM as authoritative.

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