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enummaelish

Deification in the Bible

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Except fot the fact that II maccabees is Jewsish writting and not Catholic or Christian.

Correct me if Im wrong.

Secondly you are cutting the qualifying sentence out because it doesnt support your Idea.

Man was made in the same way... and how was man made?

"From the dust of the earth."

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enummaelish  writes,

I still love you and so do the Gods.

Which God?

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Zakuska  writes,

Except fot the fact that II maccabees is Jewsish writting and not Catholic or Christian.

I believe that the Catholic Church might have some Jewish scholars.

Man was made in the same way... and how was man made?

Man comes much later after Gen 1:1 ...

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But your supporting "scripture" ties the two together and you rip it from context and through away the part that contradicts what you say.

2 Macabees 7:28

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Zakuska  writes,

But your supporting "scripture" ties the two together and you rip it from context and through away the part that contradicts what you say.

You might want to look at verses 22-23 to understand the "same way" ... the Creator shapes each's man beginning and brings about the origin of everything ... in constrast the the Creator shapes the universes beginning and brings about the origin of everything.

22 "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed.

23 Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law." Martyrdom of Mother and Sons

24 Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office.

25 When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life.

26 After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son.

27 In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: "Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age.

28 I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence.

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Gen.1

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

One problem with scripture is that we read in English that which G-d spoke and had written in Hebrew. Though the book of Genesis begins in English with

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Johnny,

22 I cannot tell how you came into my womb; for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you. 23 But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also in His own mercy give you breath and life again, as you now regard not your own selves for His laws' sake. 24 Now Antiochus, thinking himself despised, and suspecting it to be a reproachful speech, whilst the youngest was yet alive did not only exhort him by words, but also assured him with oaths, that he would make him both a rich and a happy man if he would turn from the laws of his fathers, and that also he would take him for his friend and trust him with affairs. 25 But when the young man would in no case hearken unto him, the king called his mother and exhorted her that she would counsel the young man to save his life. 26 And when he had exhorted her with many words, she promised him that she would counsel her son. 27 But she, bowing herself toward him, laughing the cruel tyrant to scorn, spoke in her country's language in this manner: O my son, have pity upon me that bore thee nine months in my womb, and gave thee suck three years, and nourished thee, and brought thee up unto this age, and endured the troubles of education. 28 I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...c+7&version=tmb

Hmm still doesnt say anything about ex nihilo.

How was man made?

Gen. 2: 7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice... the word formed? Its strongs: 03335

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...32787-2397.html

Of course you know bara - 01254 of Gen 1:1

Looks like the same definition to me.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...32874-8599.html

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28 I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence.

This is a very uneducated way to look at things. With enough energy the universe as we know it could be brought into existance with the matter equal to that of a football.

The key is energy - are we to assume that G-d created the universe without "power" that already existed in him?

Nothing comes from nothing - Science has proven that matter and energy are in reality different forms of the same thing.

The Traveler

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The Traveler  writes,

In otherwords the Beginning was the beginning of a covenant.

Do you know of any other scriputes that would support your interpretation?

Nothing comes from nothing - Science has proven that matter and energy are in reality different forms of the same thing.

Do you know of any scriptures that would prove your point?

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Zakuska  writes,

Hmm still doesnt say anything about ex nihilo.

Here is a King James Version. It says "things that were not" or nothingness

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx...V1&byte=4282674

[28] I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.

How was man made?

2Macc verse 23 tells us how man was made

[23] But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake.

Notice... the word formed? Its strongs: 03335

What is your point?

Both are "formed" ... earth was formed from "heaven and the earth" that God created ... man was formed from "dust" that God created

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Here are just afew of my unprofessional thoughts:

Concerning the creation account:

Genesis one, verse one is a general statement about what is about to be described. Notice how heaven is not created until verses 6-8 and earth is not created until verses 9-10.

Verse two says the earth, which was not created yet, was without form, which in Hebrew can mean confusion or a worthless or empty place. It was void, or empty. It was dark upon the deep. The deep is something that seems not to have been created, it was just there. What was the deep? The word means a main sea or a mass of water. And then the Spirit of God moved, or brooded over the waters, like a bird cares for her eggs as she is waiting for them to hatch. So, it appears that we have something that is already there, but in its present form it is empty or worthless or in confusion. I t requires the Lord to brood over it so that it can become organized and useful.

Verse three says,

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The first is that I predict that going forward the statement,

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The Early Church Fathers taught that creation was from nothing.

VICTORINUS

The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made that was made." Therefore, first, was made the creation; secondly, man, the lord of the human race, as says the apostle.

St. Basil

If matter is uncreated, it has a claim to the same honours as God, since

it must be of equal rank with Him. Is this not the summit of wickedness, that

an extreme deformity, without quality, without form, shape, ugliness without

configuration, to use their own expression, should enjoy the same

prerogatives with Him, Who is wisdom. power and beauty itself, the Creator and

the Demiurge of the universe? This is not all. If matter is so great as to be

capable of being acted on by the whole wisdom of God, it would in a way raise

its hypostasis to an equality with the inaccessible power of God, since it

would be able to measure by itself all the extent of the divine intelligence.

If it is insufficient for the operations of God, then we fall into a more

absurd blasphemy, since we condemn God for not being able, on account of the

want of matter, to finish His own works.

Peace be with you

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Time begins when it is defined.

The time that we know began when "God created the heaven and the earth"

johnny-

The key to the whole thing resides in your own post - look at it carefully, please.

The time that we know began when...

You have asked some questions that you, I, nor anyone else on this earth can answer, such as: What makes G-d the Father G-d (or more specifically, who is his G-d)? When did time begin? and What was before Gen. 1:1? This last question, actually, can be answered to many degrees.

If you look at what you posted, I emphasized the important part - 'that we know', or more appropriately - 'as to us'.

As to us - on the earth, this mortal probation - time began at the creation. G-d the Father is the only G-d with which we have anything to do. To us, he has always been, and always will be - there is no other. He is the first and the last, he has no beginning and no end - as to us, and our mortal probation. He created the Heavens and the Earth, and all that in it is found. There is nothing that is created that wasn't created by him - as to us, and this life.

I want you to think about this very carefully. What do you know? What is there that is created that you know of? Time as you/we know it is relevant to what, and to whom? What other G-ds do you know of?

Do you know of any other creations? Do you know of any other time? Do you know of any other G-d?

Christ is the Lord for whom? He came to redeem whom? The Atonement is for whom? And to whom, exactly, is the Gospel of Christ for?

Do you personally know of anyone else to which to Gospel applies to? Well, neither do I, and that's the whole point. This whole thing - life, creation, time, the Gospel, sin, repentance, faith, obedience, the Christ, Heaven, G-d, and so on - is for US.

It applies to us, for us, and only us. When time began for G-d, what was before Gen., how did G-d come to be, and any other such questions are irrelevant for us in returning to our Heavenly Father - to fulfill the mission of Christ; which is to bring to pass the Eternal Life and immortality of Man.

Because you cannot answer, receive a sufficient answer to, and/or understand these things, you choose to believe the way you do.

You have also asked what is the term 'heaven and earth' defined as. Well, it's defined as Heaven - and - Earth. The same as peanut butter and jelly. Yes, there is peanut butter, which is one thing, and jelly, which is another, both different from peanut butter AND jelly, but it is still only peanut butter and jelly.

The Word - Jesus - created the Heaven; (the sky (atmoshere), the Sun, the Moon, the Solar system, the Milky Way, etc., and Earth; the core, the crust, the mantle, the plants, animals, Man, birds, fish, water, etc., by the power and authority given to him by his Father - our Father in Heaven, the creator (organizer) of our souls/ spirits. They existed before the World was created, as did we. He has always been our Father, though. Time is not the same for him - where he is - and for us, here. The time as we know it, was started at the creation. All that we know of on this earth, was created at that time, by the Word. There is only one G-d for us - only one that we know, worship, pray to, obey, etc.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it has always been. It was before Gen.

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Gordon  writes,

Do you know of any other creations? Do you know of any other time? Do you know of any other G-d?

I know my knowledge is limited but is God's knowledge limited.

Does our all-knowing God know of any other creations?

Does our all-knowing God know of any other time?

Does our all-knowing God know of any other God?

Is God bound by the space and time that we know?

You have also asked what is the term 'heaven and earth' defined as. Well, it's defined as Heaven - and - Earth. The same as peanut butter and jelly. Yes, there is peanut butter, which is one thing, and jelly, which is another, both different from peanut butter AND jelly, but it is still only peanut butter and jelly.

But this peanut butter and jelly can be in many forms ... or it can be without form and simply be the matter that is "peanut butter and jelly".

Gen 1:2 says "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep"

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The idea that there are multiple Divine Beings who have material bodies with human form is sharply at odds with the axiom of the theologians that God's "Essence" is "wholly other" than the rest of the universe. This assumption on the part of mainstream Christians is based on the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo - creation from nothing. In his 1990 Presidential address to the British Association for Jewish Studies, Peter Hayman asserted the following:

Nearly all recent studies on the origin of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo have come to the conclusion that this doctrine is not native to Judaism, is nowhere attested in the Hebrew Bible, and probably arose in Christianity in the second century C.E. in the course of its fierce battle with Gnosticism. The one scholar who continues to maintain that the doctrine is native to Judaism, namely Jonathan Goldstein, thinks that it first appears at the end of the first century C.E., but has recently conceded the weakness of his position in the course of debate with David Winston.61

The Apostle Peter was quite explicit about his belief in creation from a watery chaos, rather than from nothingness. He wrote, "There were heavens and earth long ago, created by God's word out of water and with water." (2 Peter 3:5 NEB) The background for this passage is the first two verses of Genesis: "In the beginning of creation

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The first is that I predict that going forward the statement,

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David,

Nobody commented on your quotes. I enjoyed them and I noticed that you have added a couple since the last time I saw you post them.

With your understanding of LDS deification (as best understood not as presented by critics or even as perhaps embraced by polytheistic LDS who likely still exist as my LDS brothers) and your understanding of Catholic deification (again as best understood based on your alignment of what is and has been taught by those who are not intentionally trying to create a chasm between Catholic and LDS beliefs) what are the differences between Catholic and LDS deification.

Based on my guesses about what you will say, I thought I would ask an additional question.

Catholics believe that a component of God

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polytheistic LDS ?

Heck no...

More closely related to Henotheisitic my self.

There is one God for us to worship... but there are an inifinite number of imortal beings.

As Paul said... there are gods many and lords many both in heaven and in earth.

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The Early Church Fathers taught that creation was from nothing.

VICTORINUS

The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made that was made." Therefore, first, was made the creation; secondly, man, the lord of the human race, as says the apostle.

St. Basil

If matter is uncreated, it has a claim to the same honours as God, since

it must be of equal rank with Him. Is this not the summit of wickedness, that

an extreme deformity, without quality, without form, shape, ugliness without

configuration, to use their own expression, should enjoy the same

prerogatives with Him, Who is wisdom. power and beauty itself, the Creator and

the Demiurge of the universe? This is not all. If matter is so great as to be

capable of being acted on by the whole wisdom of God, it would in a way raise

its hypostasis to an equality with the inaccessible power of God, since it

would be able to measure by itself all the extent of the divine intelligence.

If it is insufficient for the operations of God, then we fall into a more

absurd blasphemy, since we condemn God for not being able, on account of the

want of matter, to finish His own works.

Peace be with you

Big Dogger,

Your quotes are interesting, but they are very late in the development of creation ex nihilo. St. Irenaeus predates your quotes and he embraced ex nihilo. Tatian and Thephilus can be said to support creation ex nihilo even before Irenaeus.

But before them, St. Justin Martyr was very clear that matter was eternal. Before Justin, Clement of Rome casually mentioned that God created through forming. Here is the Justin quote which is very explicit ex materia teaching and predates any Catholic ex nihilo teaching of which I am aware.

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 59 - Chapter LIX.-Plato's Obligation to Moses:

And that you may learn that it was from our teachers-we mean the account given through the prophets-that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world, spake thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so." So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses.

Why did the Catholic (and Jewish) traditions move from creation ex materia to creation ex nihilo. If I remember correctly, Gerard May (a Protestant scholar) has explored this extensively. He believe that ex nihilo was a second century creation/development/invention. He suggests IRC that it was the desire of the apologists to emphasize the sovereignty of God. To do this they developed the idea of ex nihilo creation and the concept that God and man are different because God is the only being/thing/anything that was not created ex nihilo. I am sure this made great sense to them, but it lead to the controversies over Jesus (separate from the Father or the same person as the father, creator or creature) during the third and fourth centuries then during the fourth

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Hi Tom,

Wow this thread is smoking! 7 pages in two days

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David and Zakuska,

My response to Zak (that I had not yet posted) on his statement about being henotheistic incorporates much of what I would like to say to David when he asked,

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polytheistic LDS ?

Heck no...

More closely related to Henotheisitic my self.

There is one God for us to worship... but there are an inifinite number of imortal beings.

As Paul said... there are gods many and lords many both in heaven and in earth.

Zakuska, Perhaps a Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/ Trinity/GODHEAD best describes the LDS GOD concept.

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David Waltz  writes,

This means that though both Catholics and Mormons teach that the redeemed will become God by grace (i.e. God will bestow all of His attributes on the redeemed), the end result is different (IMO

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Zakuska  writes,

Apparently... you disagree with Peter your rock. He interprets Genesis 1:1 to mean the earth was created out of a watery chaos.

"There were heavens and earth long ago, created by God's word out of water and with water." (2 Peter 3:5 NEB)

The King James says the following, I use it since most Mormons use this version:

2Pet 3:5

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

You would agree that creation was "by the word of God" and that the earth was "standing out of the and in the water" just like Gen 1:2 describes. The scriptural expression "the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1) is what was created from nothingness and it is this matter that the Spirit of God moved on.

Gen 1

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

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