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Tanyan

Jesus Christ

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Paul Osborne  writes,

None of this takes away the humanity of God. None of this implies he is not a Man. That is your doing, Johnny.

I am not taking away the humanity of God. God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16).

Of course the Bible doesn't say God is a sinful man like you and me.

Joseph Smith taught that God was a man like you and me .... you would agree that we are sinful men.

You can ask Moses when you see him. But the record clearly states that Moses spoke to God face to face just like a man speaks to a friend while in his presence.

"face to face" does not mean he say his face, it means he "like a man speaks to a friend". I can speak "face to face" to someone who is hidden behind a vail and still not see his physical face.

Johnny

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If you check revelation, you'll notice it is a vision.

Yes it is. What you have failed miserably to do is show that visions are not representations of reality. John had a vision just as Stephen had a vision and Joseph Smith had a vision. Joseph Smith sees essentially the same thing as Stephen and John, but bigots like you smear his name for his vision. But that's the typical double standard you - and others - apply to him.

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As I mentioned above "face to face" does not mean he say his face, it means he "like a man speaks to a friend". I can speak "face to face" to someone who is hidden behind a vail and still not see his physical face.

No, not really.

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What I get is that Christ body was different in some ways that ours.---Our body cannot contain the glory or pure nature of God--as Christ did as he walked the earth-----hence the reason that we must be changed in our body

Oh my goodness - something we agree on :P . Your vocab is a bit different, but close enough to what I believe. Christ's body did have all the frailities of mortality - this he inhereted from His mother. From His Father He gained the power over death. He was the only one that could give the sign of Jona because of what He inherited from the Father.

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Johnny,

Joseph Smith taught that God was a man like you and me .... you would agree that we are sinful men

:P

Reference please...?

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Zakuska writes,

>Joseph Smith taught that God was a man like you and me .... you would agree that we are sinful men

Reference please...?

Try Chapter 47 of Mormon Gospel principals:

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

It says:

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

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"He was "once" a man like us"

Does not mean he is a man like us now.

Christ lived on this earth had a body like you and I have yet he was sinless. Why cant his father be?

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Zakuska writes,

ist lived on this earth had a body like you and I have yet he was sinless. Why cant his father be?

What does the Mormon Church say offically?

If the Mormon Church teaches that he was a man like us couldn't that infer that God the Father was a sinner like me and you?

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But there inlies the Atonement. Sins are blotted out by the blood of the lamb. Thus.... We are not sinners.

Also... wasnt Chirst "a man like me and you" yet he remained sinless?

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Zakuska writes,

Also... wasnt Chirst "a man like me and you" yet he remained sinless?

Christ was God before his incarnation and Christ was God after his resurrection.

Mormonism teaches that God the Father became God.

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Christ was God before his incarnation and Christ was God after his resurrection.

What about while he was on the earth?

Mormonism also teaches the divinity of Man.

We where children of God before our birth and we will be children of God after our ressurection.

If we dont reject him.

He became God just like all the other Gods before him forward into eternity.

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Johnny,

I am trying to help you out here. Could you let me know whether you are in agreement with the following or not?

I happen to believe the Bible to be sufficiently vague so as to allow for differing interpretations by reasonable and intelligent people. This includes those subjects on dealing with the material nature of God.

I also believe that, within interfaith dialogue (such as exist here), each of those differing interpretations by reasonable and intelligent people should be given due respect.

At the very least, it does no good in such situations to make dogmatic pronouncements back and forth (as made evident by this and other threads). It is doubful that anyone will be convinced one way or another thereby, and the opportunity is lost for gaining greater insignt into how and why we each believe as we do--which, as I see it, should be THE object of such discussions, if not one of the primary objects.

With that having been said, I can see how Johnny can view God the Father as pure spirit (meaning the Father has no body to speak of) even in light of the scriptures that have been quoted which, to the minds of others, may suggest otherwise. I have no doubt that Johnny, and those of his faith, view those same scriptures as true, and have reasonable explanations that reconcile those scriptures with their stated theology. I can respect that.

I only hope that Johnny can say the same in return about the restored gospel of Christ, and its stated beliefs in relation to the Bible regarding the material nature of God.

Can you say the same? Because, if not, then I don't know what value there would be in discussing the matter further with you (assuming that dogmatic pronouncement from either side may even qualify as a discussion thus far).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Zakuska writes,

We where children of God before our birth and we will be children of God after our ressurection.

If you are a child of God before your birth what is the need of the Spirit of adoption and being born again?

He became God just like all the other Gods before him forward into eternity.

Did Jesus become God?

Zwenglund writes,

Can you say the same?

I can say the bible is sufficiently vague.

And I can say that the Catholic Church helps us to understand the bible where there is vagueness.

And I can say that the Spirit of truth will lead us to the truth.

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Johnny,

If you are a child of God before your birth what is the need of the Spirit of adoption and being born again?

Exactly... "born again" you had to be born once before. both in spirit and in flesh. Water and spirit.

You where born into corruption so that corruption would become incoruption.

Did Jesus become God?

Yes... His mortal body became imortal.

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Johnny

I am not taking away the humanity of God. God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16).

You are taking away the humanity of God the Father when you deny he is a Holy Man who speaks with a male voice.

Johnny

"face to face" does not mean he say his face, it means he "like a man speaks to a friend". I can speak "face to face" to someone who is hidden behind a vail and still not see his physical

I

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He could sound like a donkey... :P

2 Pet. 2: 16

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Show me in in the Bible where God the Father has a body of flesh and bones and has a masculine voice.

The masculine voice:

Ex 33:11

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a WOMAN speaketh unto her friend.

There, are you satisified now?

Paul O

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God has a masculine voice:

1 Sam 3:6 And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again

This is proof that Samuel heard a male voice because he thought he was hearing Eli.

Don't you agree, Johnny?

:P

Paul O

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This is proof that Samuel heard a male voice because he thought he was hearing Eli.

Maybe Eli was a "high talker." :P

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Zakuska  writes,

Exactly... "born again" you had to be born once before. both in spirit and in flesh. Water and spirit.

Man is first born in the flesh and then needs to "born again" in the spirit

>Did Jesus become God?

Yes... His mortal body became imortal. 

Jesus did not become God ... God was manifest in the flesh (1Tim 3:16).

Paul Osborne  writes,

I

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Johnny,

Man is first born in the flesh and then needs to "born again" in the spirit

However you are forgetting the pre-existance of the breath of life. Which God Gave.

Eccl. 12: 7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Man is a duality. God creates his body in a mothers womb (from ingested clay pre-existant matter)and breaths into it the breath of Life. This breath of life is imortal since God gave it. It didnt have a beginning nor will it have an end.

>Did Jesus become God?

Yes... His mortal body became imortal.

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Why is Johnny ignoring my refrences ?, pock shots then leaves with refrences to Catholic Teachings. I guess he unable to deal with real Early Israelite/ 1st Century Doctrine/Teachings/Beliefs/Practices of Christians in relation to GOD.

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Paul Osborne

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Zakuska  writes,

However you are forgetting the pre-existance of the breath of life. Which God Gave.

Eccl. 12: 7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Could you describe how Ecc 12:7 describes "the pre-existance of the breath of life"?

What is the breath of life?

Man is a duality. God creates his body in a mothers womb (from ingested clay pre-existant matter)and breaths into it the breath of Life. This breath of life is imortal since God gave it. It didnt have a beginning nor will it have an end.

Every spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.

Never once that I am aware of is Christ called God while here on the earth. He is always refered to as Lord or is called a man. (ie God who became man Who became God and will make men gods) He emptied himself of God hood to become a man.

What does it mean that "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9)?

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Tanyan  writes,

johnny, when are you going to deal with my refernces above ?.

I will read them right after you read my references

Here is the first one:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

If that is to long I have summarized that reference at the following web site:

http://comparing-views.com/book/toc.htm

They are on-line for your easy-access ... are yours on-line?

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