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Duncan

When does the Endowment begin?

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I am wondering when does the endowment begin, not when did it  start but when does the endowment begin? Reason I ask is some years ago I read or heard someone say that the endowment really begins when we get baptized and confirmed but I always assumed that it starts in the initiatory ceremony. Thoughts?

Edited by Duncan
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2 hours ago, DonBradley said:

Seems like partly just a matter of definition, but the first New Testament idea of being endowed with power seems to have referred to the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost; so, arguably on that model the endowment of power would begin with confirmation. 

But it partly just depends on what we choose the word "endowment" to mean............

Yep.  At the close of his 40-Day Ministry, in Luke 24:49, the resurrected Jesus did promise "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed (endued) with power from on high,” referring to the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost -- as predicted in Joel 2:28-32.  But that is a public (exoteric, non-temple) event, which could be witnessed by anyone, and Jesus had just spent the past 40 days teaching temple rites (https://fortydayministry.com/ ).  The LDS endowment liturgy even speaks about itself as an endowment.

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2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

When you were born.

Beat me to it.  Exactly this.

Everything we are taught in the temple is represented in our journey through this life.

We really are Adams and Eves, from the day we are born until our exaltation leads the pattern to begin again.

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The endowment is a gift of power. Priesthood power comes from keeping covenants. The temple endowment is simply a vehicle to make and keep additional covenants, and to thereby receive additional power. 
 

Your endowment of power began with the ordinance of birth. 

Edited by PacMan
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3 hours ago, PacMan said:

The endowment is a gift of power. Priesthood power comes from keeping covenants. The temple endowment is simply a vehicle to make and keep additional covenants, and to thereby receive additional power. 
 

Your endowment of power began with the ordinance of birth. 

Mostly true, especially the last sentence.

But the endowment is far more than a vehicle for covenant making.  There is real eternal knowledge and power in what is taught, not just in the covenants entered.

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On 11/30/2019 at 2:21 PM, Duncan said:

I am wondering when does the endowment begin, not when did it  start but when does the endowment begin? Reason I ask is some years ago I read or heard someone say that the endowment really begins when we get baptized and confirmed but I always assumed that it starts in the initiatory ceremony. Thoughts?

Maybe it began a very long, long time ago....possibly  from the foundation of the world or even before?

Quote

Alma 12: 25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

Quote

Alma 13: 1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place* being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
5 Or in fine, in the first place* they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared
6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—
7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things
8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—
9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is.

* “First place” = pre-mortal existence?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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For those responding that the endowment began at birth, or before, I am confused as to what you consider the endowment to be.  From my understanding, it can't begin until after the ordinance.  It may have been prepared from the foundation, and we may have been in preparation for it from birth, but I don't see how it could begin on a personal level before the temple ordinance. 

Edited by pogi

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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

For those responding that the endowment began at birth, or before, I am confused as to what you consider the endowment to be. 

Endowment means gift. And the gift given is power. Any divine gift of power is an endowment. And the first great gift of power we received were our bodies. 

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On 11/30/2019 at 8:47 PM, InCognitus said:

Which time? 

I know, right?

 

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

For those responding that the endowment began at birth, or before, I am confused as to what you consider the endowment to be.  From my understanding, it can't begin until after the ordinance.  It may have been prepared from the foundation, and we may have been in preparation for it from birth, but I don't see how it could begin on a personal level before the temple ordinance. 

Well, there is the beginning and there is the middle and there is the culmination/eternal continuation. Since Duncan was asking about the beginning . . .

I can't speak for the others, but my perspective some time ago was restored (by attending the temple, no less) to a perspective that my life began before entering this world (which I imagine you have that same understanding and would agree thus far), and that the entrance into this world IS an/the actual ordinance; and that the temple is a map or pointer to the endowment, not the endowment itself; or some might say, a portion of the endowment, but not the entire. The endowment itself is what we receive in this world; that hope or desire for obtaining a 'fullness' that would cause ourselves to submit ourselves for the candidacy for entering this world and be accepted for candidacy (i.e. by our Father in Heaven).

The earth and the altar are synonymous, as well, which may provide food for pondering. So those candidates (speaking of the pre-mortal life) have been brought to the altar, which is the entrance into the veil or the earth life.

That is somewhat how it goes, that allows a person to arrive at a broader understanding of what the endowment is, including its timeline.

 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I have to say, I spoke in trepidation thinking I would be put on a stake, ha ha, so I am pleasantly surprised to not be the only one understanding in this direction.

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3 hours ago, PacMan said:

Endowment means gift. And the gift given is power. Any divine gift of power is an endowment. And the first great gift of power we received were our bodies. 

That is true in the general sense, but the temple endowment is something apart and reserved for those participating in that specific ordinance - and I wouldn't consider birth a priesthood "ordinance" as you previously stated.

Edited by pogi

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16 hours ago, PacMan said:

The endowment is a gift of power. Priesthood power comes from keeping covenants. The temple endowment is simply a vehicle to make and keep additional covenants, and to thereby receive additional power. 
 

Your endowment of power began with the ordinance of birth. 

What about the power to choose between Lucifer and Jesus of Nazareth?  

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On 11/30/2019 at 3:22 PM, DonBradley said:

Seems like partly just a matter of definition, but the first New Testament idea of being endowed with power seems to have referred to the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost; so, arguably on that model the endowment of power would begin with confirmation. 

But it partly just depends on what we choose the word "endowment" to mean.

Don

I like your answer the best, and I like everyone else's answer, too.  When Duncan asked when does "the endowment", or when we say "the endowment", which gift or which power are we talking about? 

Which one of the many gifts and powers we have already received, and are yet to receive, are we calling "the' endowment"?

I had never heard of anything called an "endowment" until I joined the Church and was told about the endowment we can receive in our Lord's temples, or our temples which we have dedicated to the work of the Lord.  So for me "the endowment" is the one we receive in temples, not to an endowment/gift/power I got before I was born on this planet, or when I was born here, or when I was baptized here, or when I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.  That's the one I'm calling "the" endowment, and it began, for me, when I got that gift of power, even though I had heard about it a year or two before I got it.

 

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8 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I know, right?

 

Well, there is the beginning and there is the middle and there is the culmination/eternal continuation. Since Duncan was asking about the beginning . . .

I can't speak for the others, but my perspective some time ago was restored (by attending the temple, no less) to a perspective that my life began before entering this world (which I imagine you have that same understanding and would agree thus far), and that the entrance into this world IS an/the actual ordinance; and that the temple is a map or pointer to the endowment, not the endowment itself; or some might say, a portion of the endowment, but not the entire. The endowment itself is what we receive in this world; that hope or desire for obtaining a 'fullness' that would cause ourselves to submit ourselves for the candidacy for entering this world and be accepted for candidacy (i.e. by our Father in Heaven).

The earth and the altar are synonymous, as well, which may provide food for pondering. So those candidates (speaking of the pre-mortal life) have been brought to the altar, which is the entrance into the veil or the earth life.

That is somewhat how it goes, that allows a person to arrive at a broader understanding of what the endowment is, including its timeline.

 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I have to say, I spoke in trepidation thinking I would be put on a stake, ha ha, so I am pleasantly surprised to not be the only one understanding in this direction.

If you want to be stoned as a heretic you have to go farther these days. Now let me explain how we fell to a Telestial state before we were born...........

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President Brigham Young said of the endowment:

“Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.”

Discourses of Brigham Young 416 (1941)

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2 hours ago, Lachoneus said:

President Brigham Young said of the endowment:

“Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.”

Discourses of Brigham Young 416 (1941)

I like his specific teaching on how we use what we learn in the temple:

"There are four penal signs and four penal tokens and should I want to address the throne to enquire after Ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things and should I want to enquire for future things I would use the third name which refers to the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood or is the third token that is given and refers to the Son."

Edited by JLHPROF

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2 hours ago, Lachoneus said:

President Brigham Young said of the endowment:

“Let me give you a definition in brief. Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.”

Discourses of Brigham Young 416 (1941)

I should also point out that while the things he names in this statement are inseparably comnected to the covenants we enter, this is the key purpose of the endowment.  The knowledge and ability to pierce the veil.  That is the power of the endowment.

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On 11/30/2019 at 5:21 PM, Duncan said:

I am wondering when does the endowment begin, not when did it  start but when does the endowment begin? 

Baptism 

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14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I like his specific teaching on how we use what we learn in the temple:

"There are four penal signs and four penal tokens and should I want to address the throne to enquire after Ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things and should I want to enquire for future things I would use the third name which refers to the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood or is the third token that is given and refers to the Son."

And then an unspoken final one for the things of eternity.

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23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If you want to be stoned as a heretic you have to go farther these days. Now let me explain how we fell to a Telestial state before we were born...........

Yes, go on . . . (lol).

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1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

Yes, go on . . . (lol).

As fun as heresy is I probably should not spread it.

1t5aot.jpg

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