Endowment and Presence of the Father

[Duncan]

Something i've seen numerous times is the idea that we need the gospel and ordinances to get back to the presence of the God the Father. One quotation I see is from Pres. Young

"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you to, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father"

Discourses of Brigham Young, pg 416

It would appear that only those endowed will get a chance to get back to the presence of the Father. Do you think though that what Pres. Young and others really mean to say is that those who get endowed(in this life or the next) will dwell with God again and go onto Celestial Glory? Won't everyone who ever lived stand in the presence of God the Father to be judged by him with Christ as our advocate? as per D&C 45:3-5. If it really means only those endowed will get back to God the Father then how would we interpret Helaman 14:15-17

15 "For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord."

 

[Ahab]

On good terms.  I think that's the main point.  We'll be able to go see him without feeling like we're in violation of his laws, feeling comfortable to be around him, and even able to live with him while following his rules in his house.  Living that way even when not at his house.

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

On good terms.  I think that's the main point.  We'll be able to go see him without feeling like we're in violation of his laws, feeling comfortable to be around him, and even able to live with him while following his rules in his house.  Living that way even when not at his house.

but everyone worthy or not, believer or not will stand before him one day

[Maestrophil]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

but everyone worthy or not, believer or not will stand before him one day

Will we?  Or does that only apply to Jesus?

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Something i've seen numerous times is the idea that we need the gospel and ordinances to get back to the presence of the God the Father. One quotation I see is from Pres. Young

"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you to, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father"

Discourses of Brigham Young, pg 416

It would appear that only those endowed will get a chance to get back to the presence of the Father. Do you think though that what Pres. Young and others really mean to say is that those who get endowed(in this life or the next) will dwell with God again and go onto Celestial Glory? Won't everyone who ever lived stand in the presence of God the Father to be judged by him with Christ as our advocate? as per D&C 45:3-5. If it really means only those endowed will get back to God the Father then how would we interpret Helaman 14:15-17

15 "For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord."

 

I think the word "may" as in verse 15 -- men may be brought into the presence of the Lord -- makes it possible but not guaranteed.

Elsewhere in the scriptures, the resurrection and judgement days are guaranteed, but who we associate with after that is conditional on keeping the covenants.

 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the word "may" as in verse 15 -- men may be brought into the presence of the Lord -- makes it possible but not guaranteed.

Elsewhere in the scriptures, the resurrection and judgement days are guaranteed, but who we associate with after that is conditional on keeping the covenants.

 

in verse 17 it says "all mankind" which is why I was wondering how to square that with what Pres. Young said

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

in verse 17 it says "all mankind" which is why I was wondering how to square that with what Pres. Young said

Oh yes. All mankind "may...," and BY says "enable," which means the endowment and ability may be applied properly (or not).

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Oh yes. All mankind "may...," and BY says "enable," which means the endowment and ability may be applied properly (or not).

so worthy or not, everyone will be in God's presence but what will be the deciding factor as to warrant "may"? If God says no you can't come back to my presence then what use is Christ being our advocate? advocate to whom and why?

[Metis_LDS]

What about John 5:22   For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son.   What does that mean in term of the advocate role of Christ?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Metis_LDS
addition and spelling

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Something i've seen numerous times is the idea that we need the gospel and ordinances to get back to the presence of the God the Father. One quotation I see is from Pres. Young

"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you to, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father"

Discourses of Brigham Young, pg 416

It would appear that only those endowed will get a chance to get back to the presence of the Father. Do you think though that what Pres. Young and others really mean to say is that those who get endowed(in this life or the next) will dwell with God again and go onto Celestial Glory? Won't everyone who ever lived stand in the presence of God the Father to be judged by him with Christ as our advocate? as per D&C 45:3-5. If it really means only those endowed will get back to God the Father then how would we interpret Helaman 14:15-17

15 "For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord."

 

First of all, presence of the Lord and presence of the Father may not be the same thing. I'd have to study a bit more; but I'm thinking 'Lord' is more the Son; which is a different stage of the progression than the 'Father".

Remember that all these stages are who YOU become; the presence of the Father would be you in the stature of the Father, by walking that path.

I was just thinking this today; we are now providing the tokens in our passage in the earth life; because they have to be lived in real time; the tokens we have from the temple are the map of the journey, not the journey itself.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

so worthy or not, everyone will be in God's presence but what will be the deciding factor as to warrant "may"? If God says no you can't come back to my presence then what use is Christ being our advocate? advocate to whom and why?

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that "may" means He has done everything necessary to make entering into His presence possible, and we must choose to accept His invitation and act accordingly on His Atonement. Similarly, "enabling" means God has provided everything we need to enter into His presence, and we must also choose and act accordingly for that to happen.

Everyone will be resurrected and judged, but only the faithful and obedient will enter into His presence. He has delegated judgement to his Apostles and disciples.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you to, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father"

While it doesn't state it specifically, I think it suggests that the endowment will enable us to endure (remain in) His presence.  Those who are not worthy cannot endure his presence and would not "walk back" willfully into it. 

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that "may" means He has done everything necessary to make entering into His presence possible, and we must choose to accept His invitation and act accordingly on His Atonement. Similarly, "enabling" means God has provided everything we need to enter into His presence, and we must also choose and act accordingly for that to happen.

Everyone will be resurrected and judged, but only the faithful and obedient will enter into His presence. He has delegated judgement to his Apostles and disciples.

that's what i'm saying it seems that all mankind regardless of worthiness and belief will stand before him some day but those who are endowed and accepted the gospel will dwell with him in Celestial glory. It's like going to someone's door and you know they answer so you are in their presence but it's up to that homeowner to decided if you come in or not. I seem to recall Pres. Packer saying something like that but now Pres. Nelson seemed to correct him, but I can't find any quotes right now.

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

While it doesn't state it specifically, I think it suggests that the endowment will enable us to endure (remain in) His presence.  Those who are not worthy cannot endure his presence and would not "walk back" willfully into it. 

that's kind of what I think as well, as in the huddled, unwashed masses with meet God or be in his presence but only those who were endowed, accepted the Gospel will remain with him, 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

that's what i'm saying it seems that all mankind regardless of worthiness and belief will stand before him some day but those who are endowed and accepted the gospel will dwell with him in Celestial glory. It's like going to someone's door and you know they answer so you are in their presence but it's up to that homeowner to decided if you come in or not. I seem to recall Pres. Packer saying something like that but now Pres. Nelson seemed to correct him, but I can't find any quotes right now.

I think the person answering the door isn't necessarily the Christ, but a judge He has chosen (Mormon 3:18, Matthew 19:28, 1 Nephi 12:9-10, 3 Nephi 27:27). Note that "judge" also means to "rule" or "govern" so some f this language may refer to more than that day and moment of reckoning.

At any rate, I think the scripture in 2 Nephi 9:41, where Christ is described as the only keeper of the gate, is sometimes taken to refer to this final consignaion or assignation to a kingdom of glory, but I think it really has to do with His way, the straight and narrow path, is the only way, an He is the only one determining its course and making it possible through His Atonement.

Certainly there are many ways and gradients to describing things; thank goodness for the gift of the Holy Ghost which helps us get the message we need to get at any given time.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

but everyone worthy or not, believer or not will stand before him one day

 

10 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Will we?  Or does that only apply to Jesus?

Even Satan has stood in the presence of the Father, as in the book of Job.  The final state of everyone is more definitive and meaningful, after the Judgment.

[Metis_LDS]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Even Satan has stood in the presence of the Father, as in the book of Job.  The final state of everyone is more definitive and meaningful, after the Judgment.

Robert are there any Jewish traditions about judgement day that are different from what we know?

[CV75]

@Duncan, if you can find President Nelson's and President Packer's statements, it would be interesting to compare them -- thanks!

[Tacenda]

19 hours ago, Duncan said:

in verse 17 it says "all mankind" which is why I was wondering how to square that with what Pres. Young said

Pres Young has said many things that don't square with the current church's position. For example, Pres Young said you need to live polygamy before being able to preside with God.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

@Duncan, if you can find President Nelson's and President Packer's statements, it would be interesting to compare them -- thanks!

So, this is the statement that President Packer gave in conference in 1987, which Pres. Nelson quoted in 2002?

“ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into [God’s] presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.”

and then in March of 2002 he wrote an article in the Ensign and said the following, 

"Ordinances of the temple are absolutely crucial. We cannot return to God’s glory without them."

I guess the question now is what did he mean when he said "our" ?did he mean just members of the Church and those who choose that in the next life or? plus in the 2002 article he said "glory" what did he mean by that? So, I wonder if presence and glory are two seperate places and one you need the endowment and the other it would be nice but not necessary?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

It seems like we're conflating standing before God at judgment with being in his presence (ie, exaltation).

An understanding of what we are given in the temple and why it allows us to enter God's presence helps explain this.
We are specifically taught how to present ourselves before God and be recognized.  Not that God doesn't recognize the unendowed.  He knows us all.  The other kind of recognized.
In connection we are also taught how to pass through the veil.

Edited November 21, 2019 by JLHPROF

[theplains]

On 11/20/2019 at 3:32 PM, Duncan said:

"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you to, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father"

Is the Second Anointing a requirement for exaltation?

Thanks,
Jim

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, theplains said:

Is the Second Anointing a requirement for exaltation?

Thanks,
Jim

no, but it doesn't have anything to do with the question

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Is the Second Anointing a requirement for exaltation?

Thanks,
Jim

 

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

no, but it doesn't have anything to do with the question

Yes, it is.
Whether in this life or the next.

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

So, this is the statement that President Packer gave in conference in 1987, which Pres. Nelson quoted in 2002?

“ordinances and covenants become our credentials for admission into [God’s] presence. To worthily receive them is the quest of a lifetime; to keep them thereafter is the challenge of mortality.”

and then in March of 2002 he wrote an article in the Ensign and said the following, 

"Ordinances of the temple are absolutely crucial. We cannot return to God’s glory without them."

I guess the question now is what did he mean when he said "our" ?did he mean just members of the Church and those who choose that in the next life or? plus in the 2002 article he said "glory" what did he mean by that? So, I wonder if presence and glory are two seperate places and one you need the endowment and the other it would be nice but not necessary?

I think “our” meant every child of God who obtains them. Then the credentials must be retained. I think “returning to God's glory” is part and parcel of “admission [, or returning,] into [God's] presence.”

This is why we do proxy temple work. For the dead, obtaining the credentials is crucial, and keeping them current is required for return, admission and entrance into God’s presence and glory. The dead in the spirit world who obtain them by proxy can choose to keep them current by living “according to God in the spirit” (Peter 1:4:6).

ETA: some take the preaching of the gospel to them that are dead to refer to the prophets' teachings to the faithful of previous dispensations, who have long since died. But while they were alive, they lived according to God in the spirit despite the constraints imposed by the human powers that be. Even then, they kept what they were given so they could enjoy a measure of God's glory in this life, and return to the presence of God after death.

Edited November 21, 2019 by CV75