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Unapproved Good?


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5 minutes ago, Thinking said:

While we may receive benefits from our good deeds, I believe sunstoned's point was that we shouldn't expect to receive benefits for doing good.

Well, I think we should at least expect that some benefits should come from doing good things.  I don't do good things while expecting bad things to happen, although some bad things might result from me doing something good, sometimes.  Like when someone else sees me do something good, doesn't like it, and then gives me a hard time about it.  If good things did not result from doing good things why should anyone do those good things?  Even feeling good about doing something good is a good reason to do a good thing. 

For me, the more good things happen when I do something good, the more I want to do a good thing.  If nothing but bad things happened when I did good things I don't think I would want to do anything good.  Why would I, if nothing but bad things happened?

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2 hours ago, Thinking said:

While we may receive benefits from our good deeds, I believe sunstoned's point was that we shouldn't expect to receive benefits for doing good.

I should have been more clear.  I believe that everything we do has a perceived benefit or else we don't do it.  

I agree that we shouldn't expect any specific earthly blessing.  Life is too random, imo. I don't see a big problem to expect rewards in heaven for righteous thoughts and behavior. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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4 hours ago, Ahab said:
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If three non-LDS people enter a polygamous marriage and raise children in a good, healthy way, are they not helping fulfill God's command to multiply and replenish the earth? 

I think so.  God is the one who sends spirits down here to inhabit bodies so if God sends a spirit down here to inhabit a body I would say they are helping God to do what God wants.

So do the ends justify the means? They are of course multiplying but I doubt God would consider it as correctly following His command. Are people correctly following God's command if two unmarried people have children out of wedlock? I don't think so.  

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8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

So do the ends justify the means? They are of course multiplying but I doubt God would consider it as correctly following His command. Are people correctly following God's command if two unmarried people have children out of wedlock? I don't think so.  

The command is to multiply and replenish the earth.  Are they doing that?  Yes.  Are they doing it the right way?  Well, the non-LDS people in a polygamous marriage are married, presumably by some law of the land. And we are talking about a man having sex with a woman, otherwise there would be no children if it was a same sex marriage. So I would say that any married couple that reproduce themselves are doing what God has commanded regarding multiplying and replenishing the earth.

Your question about unmarried people having children is something different than what I was talking about.   They are producing children so they are multiplying and replenishing the earth, which is what God commanded Adam and Eve to do.  But Adam and Eve were married and an unmarried couple is not.  One is doing it God's way and the other couple isn't, I'd say. even though both couples are multiplying and replenishing the earth.

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36 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The command is to multiply and replenish the earth.  Are they doing that?  Yes.  Are they doing it the right way?  Well, the non-LDS people in a polygamous marriage are married, presumably by some law of the land. And we are talking about a man having sex with a woman, otherwise there would be no children if it was a same sex marriage. So I would say that any married couple that reproduce themselves are doing what God has commanded regarding multiplying and replenishing the earth.

Your question about unmarried people having children is something different than what I was talking about.   They are producing children so they are multiplying and replenishing the earth, which is what God commanded Adam and Eve to do.  But Adam and Eve were married and an unmarried couple is not.  One is doing it God's way and the other couple isn't, I'd say. even though both couples are multiplying and replenishing the earth.

That’s assuming polygamy is Gods way. 

 

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6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:
43 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The command is to multiply and replenish the earth.  Are they doing that?  Yes.  Are they doing it the right way?  Well, the non-LDS people in a polygamous marriage are married, presumably by some law of the land. And we are talking about a man having sex with a woman, otherwise there would be no children if it was a same sex marriage. So I would say that any married couple that reproduce themselves are doing what God has commanded regarding multiplying and replenishing the earth.

Your question about unmarried people having children is something different than what I was talking about.   They are producing children so they are multiplying and replenishing the earth, which is what God commanded Adam and Eve to do.  But Adam and Eve were married and an unmarried couple is not.  One is doing it God's way and the other couple isn't, I'd say. even though both couples are multiplying and replenishing the earth.

That’s assuming polygamy is Gods way. 

And right now it isn't God's way.

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21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Scenario B is disobedient to law.

At the present time only. 

Those who practiced before the Official Statement - they weren't being disobedient. Ditto for Abraham and all the other Old Testaments polygamists.

Not sure if people who havent heard of the restored gospel are being disobedient as they can not sin against the greater light

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6 hours ago, Ahab said:

Why should God give them a blessing for that? 

Because He doesn't have a choice in the matter.

He obeys laws.

Blessings are predicated on obeying laws.

I'm not sure the good-doers' intent matters to god.

It's like a friend asked me: Can God not let you into heaven if he doesnt' like you? 

No. He can't. 

I'm banking on this hope

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

The command is to multiply and replenish the earth.  Are they doing that?  Yes.  Are they doing it the right way?  Well, the non-LDS people in a polygamous marriage are married, presumably by some law of the land. And we are talking about a man having sex with a woman, otherwise there would be no children if it was a same sex marriage. So I would say that any married couple that reproduce themselves are doing what God has commanded regarding multiplying and replenishing the earth.

Your question about unmarried people having children is something different than what I was talking about.   They are producing children so they are multiplying and replenishing the earth, which is what God commanded Adam and Eve to do.  But Adam and Eve were married and an unmarried couple is not.  One is doing it God's way and the other couple isn't, I'd say. even though both couples are multiplying and replenishing the earth.

Fornicators, adulterers, and rapists also multiply and replenish the earth. You sure you want to use that as your golden standard?

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37 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Are there really people out there who think that only LDS people are capable of doing good things? Such a weird question. God created a very big world and we are very tiny part of it. 🌍

They can be good but they cannot be godly. Then again, most members are not godly and a sad number are not even good. :( 

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Fornicators, adulterers, and rapists also multiply and replenish the earth. You sure you want to use that as your golden standard?

While these people will certainly go to hell if unrepentant, the possible results of their actions can be favorable to God.  It is difficult for us to understand, of course  

God obeys laws. This means that our actions have specified consequences that we cannot always see. Certainly good actions will have positive blessings for ourselves and bad actions the opposite.  

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On 11/17/2019 at 8:05 PM, nuclearfuels said:

If two people who never heard of the gospel help the poor, the needy, the sick, etc. they get blessed, right? 

Assuming their motives are good, yes.  (EDIT TO ADD): 

IMO, a person who does "good" only does so because he is adhering to the commandments of God. He may kick against the pricks and deny that, but that isn't availing. He may as well say "Yes, two plus two equals four, but I arrived at that conclusion not through mathematics, but through my own alternative source of knowledge." A person who concludes that 2+2=4 is using basic math to do so. He can claim he isn't, but that claim doesn't hold up.

On a related note, we believe that a person who engages in behavior which could be perceived as "good" (such as giving a gift), but who does so with an improper motive, has not actually done something "good." Moroni 7:8 states that "if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God." In my opinion, this verse teaches us that actions have no innate "goodness" or "badness" about them. The act is only "good" if the motive for that act is "good." For example, a Columbian drug load, Pablo Escobar, was famed for his philanthropy. But since those efforts (building schools, football fields, etc.) were apparently intended to curry favor amongst the poor of Columbia so as to grease the skids of his drug cartel, I do not think those actions were "good." Conversely, I believe a person who does something which is perceived as "bad," but has pure motives for doing so (e.g., Les Miserables's Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving family) may be rewarded.

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Every blessing is predicated upon obedience to the law upon which it is predicated.

Yes.

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If three non-LDS people enter a polygamous marriage and raise children in a good, healthy way, are they not helping fulfill God's command to multiply and replenish the earth? 

That would depend, I suppose, on their motive.

Also, consider Mosiah 3:11: "For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned."

As I see it, sinning in ignorance is still, in some sense, sinning, for which an atonement is required.  So I don't think we can justify sinful conduct by pointing to the ignorance of the person doing it.

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If a non-LDS person helps another non-LDS person, doesn't that help, that service, result in blessings and smile emojis in the silent-notes taken by angels above us? 

Certainly.  Again, Moroni 7 comes to mind:

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5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

I've long been interested in verse 7.  "It is not counted unto him for righteousness."

Our motives matter.  A lot.  Why we do something is as important, if not more so, than what we do.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Fornicators, adulterers, and rapists also multiply and replenish the earth. You sure you want to use that as your golden standard?

I would still admit they are multiplying and replenishing the earth if children result from those actions.  They're not going about it the right way, of course, since they are not married and not consenting adults. But if the only standard for doing good is that some good arises out of an action, regardless of how that good gets done.. a baby being born, in this example we were asked about... then the argument would seem to be that the end result... some good being accomplished... is all that really matters.

You can now pick apart that argument and show how it is wrong, if you think it is wrong, if you want to.

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11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

? I’m not following your logic.  You said that people unmarried having kids doesn’t count , as it breaks gods laws. 

CFR.  And please consider what I was saying, some more, before you arrive at your false conclusion this time.

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3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Moroni 7:8 states that "if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God." In my opinion, this verse teaches us that actions have no innate "goodness" or "badness" about them. The act is only "good" if the motive for that act is "good."

Maybe. Let's see how the opposite of that would apply.

"if a man being good giveth a gift, he doeth it charitably; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if God had done it; wherefore he is counted good before God."

I like that reasoning and I agree with it.  Good counterargument to the idea that all that matters is the end result being what we might consider to be a good thing.

So if a married man has sex with a woman who is not his wife, committing adultery, and while in that act makes a phone call to give a donation to a charitable organization, the motive for him doing both things would need to be considered before determining whether he did a good thing or a bad thing, or maybe both at the same time.

Also, the motive for people of the same sex having sexual relations with each other would need to be considered before counting that as a good act or a bad act, since actions themselves have no innate "goodness"or "badness" about them, according to that argument.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I would still admit they are multiplying and replenishing the earth if children result from those actions.  They're not going about it the right way, of course, since they are not married and not consenting adults. But if the only standard for doing good is that some good arises out of an action, regardless of how that good gets done.. a baby being born, in this example we were asked about... then the argument would seem to be that the end result... some good being accomplished... is all that really matters.

You can now pick apart that argument and show how it is wrong, if you think it is wrong, if you want to.

No, I am completely on board with your “rape is an ultimate good” logic. Definitely. No thinking that is horrific or terrifying at all.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:
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Moroni 7:8 states that "if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God." In my opinion, this verse teaches us that actions have no innate "goodness" or "badness" about them. The act is only "good" if the motive for that act is "good."

Maybe. Let's see how the opposite of that would apply.

"if a man being good giveth a gift, he doeth it charitably; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if God had done it; wherefore he is counted good before God."

I like that reasoning and I agree with it. 

So do I.  In both instances the motive is established.  A charitably-motivated gift is "good," a grudgingly-motivated gift is not.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Good counterargument to the idea that all that matters is the end result being what we might consider to be a good thing.

I agree.  Hence my references to Pablo Escobar and Jean Valjean.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So if a married man has sex with a woman who is not his wife, committing adultery, and while in that act makes a phone call to give a donation to a charitable organization, the motive for him doing both things would need to be considered before determining whether he did a good thing or a bad thing, or maybe both at the same time.

Adultery is one of those malum in se kind of things.  God has forbidden it.  Categorically.  So it's rather hard to conceptualize a motive that evades that.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Also, the motive for people of the same sex having sexual relations with each other would need to be considered before counting that as a good act or a bad act, since actions themselves have no innate "goodness"or "badness" about them, according to that argument.

Same here.

Thanks,

-Smac

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