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bsjkki

Mexican ambush kills family in massacre

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2 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

The dislike and fear of Trump remains well founded, and no one can dismiss it as if he has not created a terrible problem for his fellow citizens.

This "fear and dislike" of Trump is exactly well-founded as the fear and dislike of Obama on the right was.  And is being fueled in this case by media political hacks who are still aghast that their anointed candidate didn't win. I didn't vote for Trump, but even I can see that the only thing really wrong with him is that he says what he believes.  And that annoys some people. 

Let's keep this up so the thread can get closed!

 

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What is wrong with Trump, Stargazer, is that he breaks the law, violates separation of powers as well as checks and balances.

Your equivalency of whatever comparing Obama and Trump is based on false logic.

Edited by Jake Starkey
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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This "fear and dislike" of Trump is exactly well-founded as the fear and dislike of Obama on the right was.  And is being fueled in this case by media political hacks who are still aghast that their anointed candidate didn't win. I didn't vote for Trump, but even I can see that the only thing really wrong with him is that he says what he believes.  And that annoys some people. 

Let's keep this up so the thread can get closed!

 

No, not at all. I was stridently opposed to Obama as a lifelong conservative. This opposition to Trump is much more legitimate on all levels of concern. Enough with false equivalencies.

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It's concerning that his opponents predictably use the same stories to foment increasing irrational hatred of another sort while promoting harmful policies and even more cruelty.  It's not a matter of being sympathetic to immigrants (I am myself an immigrant, to the UK), but stopping illegal immigration. That's where this gets ridiculous, equating those who cross borders illegally with those who do so legally.  Of course, even illegal immigrants must be treated with humanity, but not encouraged to break the law, and not treated like they did nothing wrong.  If I had come to the UK on a tourist visa and then overstayed it, I would have been wrong to do so, and the UK government would have been right to send me back to the US.  I am sympathetic to those who cross the US border illegally because their own countries are cesspits (why the heck do they try to get to the US, after all?), but the solution is to fix the problems at home, not run away from them.  I'm sorry, but just because the rest of the world is a horror show, and escape to the US is seen as the only solution to some people, it doesn't make it right to break the law.

Do you still want to carry on talking politics and get this thread closed?

I, too, am an immigrant to non-US countries.

Your paragraph here does nothing to justify the tone our POTUS has used regarding legal and illegal immigrants, which has been dehumanising. If we can censure irrational hatred, which is indeed unChristlike, and counter the mission of the church, let's please censure it all, including that of the POTUS.

This is a concerning moment, if history is any teacher, when one violent atrocity would predictably be used to advance even worse violent atrocities.

Vigilance, please, especially when people are sounding a call-to-arms as a generic solution to a complicated systemic problem, especially one of another nation.

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30 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Sad to see a thread about murdered women and children devolve into this. 

Can we all agree drug cartels are bad? This was a terrible tragedy.

 

 

 

 

 

I would hardly call pleas for vigilance in light of the POTUS' concerning response as devolution. It is a mature, cautionary response.

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7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I would hardly call pleas for vigilance in light of the POTUS' concerning response as devolution. It is a mature, cautionary response.

We can agree to disagree then. I would prefer the politics get left out of the thread. 

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17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not impressed. The ladder still works. One person climbs up and with basic tools could rig up a rope ladder hanging on both sides. I could build an explosive at home that could breach it too. It might work if you man the wall but that means militarizing the border and becoming East Germany. If you build it right on the border too you then face the problem of being able to apprehend anyone damaging it.

Now you've done it!  You got the government worried about you.

This is the FBI agent keeping an eye on you over by the lunch counter - - -

Image result for hole in the newspaper

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No, not at all. I was stridently opposed to Obama as a lifelong conservative. This opposition to Trump is much more legitimate on all levels of concern. Enough with false equivalencies.

I didn't say you were pleased with Obama. I just heard the same kind of crap talk about Obama that some on  the right (including Trump) were spewing forth.  

The man has a big mouth, and so every sensitivo on earth gets offended. Doesn't mean he's going to start WW3. Barking dogs and all that; it's the quiet ones we need to worry about.

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2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would hardly call pleas for vigilance in light of the POTUS' concerning response as devolution. It is a mature, cautionary response.

This is BJSKKIs thread.  OP calls the shots.  

I say we get back to the immediate topic and not discuss potus, regardless of relevancy or importance.  

Edited by MustardSeed
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30 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Barking dogs and all that; it's the quiet ones we need to worry about.

Not so. Plenty of barking dogs attack without good cause.

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9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This is BJSKKIs thread.  OP calls the shots.  

I say we get back to the immediate topic and not discuss potus, regardless of relevancy or importance.  

I will from now on out. FTR the reply of OP I responded to was an observation, not a request. A request could have been issued at first mention of politics. Anyhoo...

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On 11/5/2019 at 2:56 PM, bsjkki said:

I agree but due to headlines that just state "Mormon family" most will think these are members of the mainstream church. The story and horror of it and our sorrow should not change but it is an important clarification for accuracy's sake. It is an absolutely horrible story with international repercussions. The President has weighed in offering our support in wiping out the drug cartels. I can't believe they killed babies and children. 

 

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31 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I want to get my two cents in before this thread gets shut down. For those of you that don't know I live down here in Mexico and have for the past year. Earlier in the 2000s we lived down here for 2 years.

The wall separating Mexico and California is not as simple singular wall as portrayed in these funny videos above. It's a single wall followed by chain-link and razor wire followed by 200 yards of no man's land and repeated on the other side of the Border. There's a dirt road on each side of the Tijuana River that is patrolled by each country. If you don't think this slows down illegal immigration and the cartels you're kidding yourselves. We cross the border at least twice a week and it's nothing to get into Mexico and a 2 hour wait to get back to California. Both sides have x-ray machines bomb-sniffing dogs and other technology to weed out the bad guys.

What President Trump said about helping is actually a good thing but should be done quietly. We don't need troops down here we need special forces hiding in the bushes with facial reconition software taking out the bad guys from the top down. I might suggest that you go watch the movie Clear and Present Danger.

This movie is fiction that parallels real life. Columbia actually has a burgeoning middle-class now that the cartels have been wiped out and has once again become a place where Cruisers and travelers enjoy visiting.

Many US citizens live down here in Mexico. There is a huge traffic jam every night of people returning from San Diego to the beaches of Tijuana to go home. We live down here because our rent is 1/3 what the rent would be in California and also because we have 2 cats. If you say you have 2 cats you go to the end of the line in Marina waitlist. They will never call you to come and move into your slip.

 There's also a burgeoning middle-class here in Mexico and I would like to see this continue without all the cartel murders. Our last Marina manager was murdered a few months back by the cartel. They said it was a drug deal but I don't know. We just mind our own business and they leave us alone because they know the country needs our money.

I would ask all of you to pray for Mexico, for this to come to an end. I know we should heed the words of Moroni in the book of Ether as posted above.

 

Mind sharing a bit more?  Is rent going up there at all?  How big is medical tourism there?  I've heard about american trained physicians and NP's setting up shop down there and making quite a bit due to there being no need for malpractice.  That, and the providers get to provide America tier medical care for a fraction of the cost.  These are things I think about as I'm going to be caring for family in the future. 

So hope things work out, half the problem is the USA, they have such a drug problem here.  The answer in a lot of places is still throw em in jail, make em felons and pretty much make it impossible for them to find gainful employment.  Concern I have is are the cartels employing Americans.  Considering how many homeless people we have who are felons, mentally ill and just ignored by society we're a prime recruiting ground. 

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On 11/5/2019 at 6:56 AM, bsjkki said:

I agree but due to headlines that just state "Mormon family" most will think these are members of the mainstream church. The story and horror of it and our sorrow should not change but it is an important clarification for accuracy's sake. It is an absolutely horrible story with international repercussions. The President has weighed in offering our support in wiping out the drug cartels. I can't believe they killed babies and children. 

Yet another indication of Pres Nelson's correctness in dropping use of the M word.

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There is medical tourism here but I would recommend Costa Rica for that purpose. We travel to California for our medical needs. I don't know that that is necessary I'm just not familiar with what's available here. Plus our Medicare is no good down here.

I believe the rent is somewhat stable down here there is a lot of empty high-rise type condos. I believe they overbuilt. You can get a place on the ocean, huge house for 350k.

PS, 

I would move to Costa Rica in a heartbeat but I need to be close to my family. 

Plus their import Duty on sailboats is 100%

Edited by rodheadlee
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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would hardly call pleas for vigilance in light of the POTUS' concerning response as devolution. It is a mature, cautionary response.

I had to go back and read your comments because I wasn’t sure why you took my plea to keep the thread non-political so personally. It wasn’t personal. I think it is appropriate to discuss the President’s response to the crisis. I think that could be done logically and non-politically. 

After reading all of your comments, I was still confused on your position. The president offered military aide. It was turned down. 

What did you want him to do? What do mean by ‘vigilance.’ I wasn’t sure what you were saying. Vigilance against the cartels? Vigilance with the President and his actions? Could you explained what you think can be done. 

I am appalled with the violence against these families. Should we not offer help?

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I had to go back and read your comments because I wasn’t sure why you took my plea to keep the thread non-political so personally. It wasn’t personal. I think it is appropriate to discuss the President’s response to the crisis. I think that could be done logically and non-politically. 

After reading all of your comments, I was still confused on your position. The president offered military aide. It was turned down. 

What did you want him to do? What do mean by ‘vigilance.’ I wasn’t sure what you were saying. Vigilance against the cartels? Vigilance with the President and his actions? Could you explained what you think can be done. 

I am appalled with the violence against these families. Should we not offer help?

I didn't glean anything personal, Bsjkki! :) But thanks for asking.

I am appalled as well, and also at the thousands of estimated annual deaths in Mexico due to cartel violence.

What I would like to see is more awareness and understanding by the POTUS of the way the US impacts Mexico, rather than reductive "answers" such as building walls and declaring war on Mexican criminals. I understand the need to eradicate the crimes, but would posit that without significant structural changes in the US and Mexico, assassinated cartels will just be replaced by more.

I am very concerned by Trump's rhetoric and that he is using this tragedy to justify some very hasty, unwise military reactions. 

 

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I didn't glean anything personal, Bsjkki! :) But thanks for asking.

I am appalled as well, and also at the thousands of estimated annual deaths in Mexico due to cartel violence.

What I would like to see is more awareness and understanding by the POTUS of the way the US impacts Mexico, rather than reductive "answers" such as building walls and declaring war on Mexican criminals. I understand the need to eradicate the crimes, but would posit that without significant structural changes in the US and Mexico, assassinated cartels will just be replaced by more.

I am very concerned by Trump's rhetoric and that he is using this tragedy to justify some very hasty, unwise military reactions. 

 

I went and read many of the articles about the Colombian cartels and why, Columbia is now a seemingly more stable country and what they did that helped. 

They killed the cartel leaders. The drug trade is still alive and well but not as centrally controlled. Because they killed the leaders, the drug gangs try and stay off the radar of their government and our government.

The government payed people to destroy their coco crops. But, the follow through has not been great and the farmers will return to drugs if there is not a viable economic alternative. 

Edited by bsjkki
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Interesting story developed this afternoon. The AP West Region had a nice headline switch after getting a bunch of flack from the twitterverse. 

Original headline (no longer availabe tweet) from the AP West Region:  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is forced to confront its history of polygamy after nine women and children from a Mormon offshoot where some practice plural marriage died in a cartel ambush in Mexico.

New: Mexico killing highlights confusion over Mormon groups. 

What happend you ask? This happened.

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2019/11/07/just-when-you-think-they-cant-sink-any-lower-aps-take-on-murdered-mormon-family-is-some-truly-next-level-blame-the-victim-garbage/

Very interesting cast of characters coming to the defense of  the Church. 

Here is the article. https://apnews.com/df0bc6f8a36e4422a6ab613b5a549fc0?utm_medium=APWestRegion&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter There was a lot of confusion as this tragedy was reported about the faith of the victims. Again, not that it matters but it does cause a lot of confusion. 

"The faith also allows men to be “sealed” for the afterlife to more than one wife if they remarry after their first wife dies, they said. Nelson, the church president, and one of his top counselors have remarried and been sealed to their second wives, Mason said.

“Still in Latter-day Saint theology, we have polygamy,” said Mason, who’s a member of the faith. “It just happens in heaven, not here on Earth.”

*If you read the tweet thread...this is language warning.

Screenshot of original story https://twitter.com/CurtisHouck/status/1192592444766015488/photo/1

Edited by bsjkki

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5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:
Quote

I agree but due to headlines that just state "Mormon family" most will think these are members of the mainstream church. 

Yet another indication of Pres Nelson's correctness in dropping use of the M word.

I don't see why we as members wouldn't want someone to think they were members.  If they were members of the local ward in Mexico would that change ANYTHING in the story?
Are we afraid some person might think because they are described as "Mormon" AND "polygamist" that the Church still practices polygamy in this life?
Or are we just insulted when someone is mistaken for a member of our Church who isn't?

I'm good with President Nelson's change on using the word Mormon.  Only because it stops the holier than thou crowd complaining if a non-TBM person uses it to describe themselves.
Sorry, but Mormon is not exclusive to LDS.  Hasn't been in decades.  President Nelson apparently realized this.

Edited by JLHPROF
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Also, this happened yesterday. Graphic video so don't click on it if you don't want to see the cartel violence. If the cops are being murdered, I'm not sure a non military solution can work. But, I'm with Rodheadlee...special forces action with the support of  the  Mexican government. I read during my research 14 police were killed in the last few weeks and this was a revenge killing for the attempted arrest of a drug lords son. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7662587/Mexican-police-officer-arrested-El-Chapos-son-assassinated-hail-bullets.html

The story is  thorough about the aborted arrest of the drug lord. The cartel came with rocket launchers. 

"Meanwhile, the cartel sent convoys of gunmen to several military installations around the city to attack soldiers and their families. 

At one military housing block, a sergeant ushered children who were playing outside to safety, but he was taken hostage.

In all, two officers and nine soldiers were taken hostage by the cartel, according to Sandoval. 

The bulk of them were providing security for two fuel tanker convoys at a toll plaza on the outskirts of the city. 

Sandoval said soldiers estimated that 150 gunmen in 30 vehicles arrived.

Once Guzmán Lopez was released, all the military personnel were let go as well and the team that had captured Guzmán Lopez left.

It was unclear was who was negotiating with cartel during the confrontation.

Sandoval said that the leader of the team with Guzmán Lopez was offered $3million to let him go, but refused and was then told the cartel would kill him and his family. "

 

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6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't see why we as members wouldn't want someone to think they were members.  If they were members of the local ward in Mexico would that change ANYTHING in the story?
Are we afraid some person might think because they are described as "Mormon" AND "polygamist" that the Church still practices polygamy in this life?
Or are we just insulted when someone is mistaken for a member of our Church who isn't?

I'm good with President Nelson's change on using the word Mormon.  Only because it stops the holier than thou crowd complaining if a non-TBM person uses it to describe themselves.
Sorry, but Mormon is not exclusive to LDS.  Hasn't been in decades.  President Nelson apparently realized this.

I have never been a fan of the word. When I was growing up I had no idea what a Mormon was it was like being a Sikh or a Mennonite or some other strange religion that nobody knew anything about. Christian? Of course not!

I have not seen any good that the term has done for the church except create confusion.

Edited by mfbukowski
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18 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

What is wrong with Trump, Stargazer, is that he breaks the law, violates separation of powers as well as checks and balances.

Your equivalency of whatever comparing Obama and Trump is based on false logic.

Can math be false?  There may be errors in a calculation but does that make it false?  Here he hasn't even stated his argument but you know it's false

Interesting.

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