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Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

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7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Both young men and young women say things at times that show that they have intelligence but lack wisdom.

Exactly. Which makes me leery about entrusting them with stewardship over what others are wearing, especially other youth who are often sensitive.  

There are too many youth who think they are diplomatic and fair when they are not and often the worst cases are the ones most convinced they have a talent for communicating.  So to say use your best judgment and be kind to youth in general is at times letting loose a hellhound (or so a youth sensitive to criticism will feel).

Better to tell youth if they must, talk to a leader, not the other youth themselves.  

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Exactly. Which makes me leery about entrusting them with stewardship over what others are wearing, especially other youth who are often sensitive. 

When are they given stewardship over what others wear? 

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3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

When are they given stewardship over what others wear? 

When they are told they can go around telling others what they should be wearing. It may not be official, but giving them the right to is giving them stewardship.

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On 10/30/2019 at 8:20 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. Just reporting my experience. Lots of folks here do not wear socks in the summer, even though Seattle is known for the guys who wear socks with their sandals.

 

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9 hours ago, bluebell said:

Tell her that was an excellent point!

She has not had the best day today. You made her smile and she said she appreciates it.

Edited by Rain
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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

When they are told they can go around telling others what they should be wearing. It may not be official, but giving them the right to is giving them stewardship.

We have told our daughter to say thanks for your concern. My parents and I are fine with what I am wearing. It you have further concerns, please take that up with my mother.   

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

When they are told they can go around telling others what they should be wearing. It may not be official, but giving them the right to is giving them stewardship.

I'm not familiar with this.  Are you saying that there are places where young men (or others) are told to monitor what others are wearing?

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

The problem is it is opinion in the vast majority of cases we are discussing (church context) and whether or not a young man or someone else has a right to impose their opinion on a young woman. 

Just out of curiosity, so what if a young man says something to a young women? I would hope that when my daughter is older and if she is dressed appropriately and a young man tells her she is not, she can kindly tell him when to stick his opinion. Unfortunately we live in a society where everyone feels their opinion counts for something and they also feel that everyone needs to hear their opinion.  I am sure I fall into that category.  I have this problem that I am working on where I put way to much stock into what others think and say. The opinions of 99% of the people I know should really mean nothing. 

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3 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

We have told our daughter to say thanks for your concern. My parents and I are fine with what I am wearing. It you have further concerns, please take that up with my mother.   

I really like this!! Thanks for sharing

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4 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

We have told our daughter to say thanks for your concern. My parents and I are fine with what I am wearing. It you have further concerns, please take that up with my mother.   

Great response. 

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Just now, Nacho2dope said:

I really like this!! Thanks for sharing

I had male leaders talk to me about my clothing. There were very old fashioned and took offense at small things clothing wise. I had other adults defend me. I am thankful for those men who stood up for me. I know many girls don't have the same support that I did. I never want my daughter to have to deal with it.

 So send them over to me. I will deal with it.  

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9 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

she can kindly tell him when to stick his opinion.

Unfortunately youth mature at different rates and have different personalities. If a young woman is already sensitive about her appearance due to puberty changes, it can be horrifying. Introverts or others who have difficulty expressing themselves can be easily troubled by comments. Extroverts probably do too, but I am not as familiar with that type of personality having troubles (they are not the type that usually confide in me).

There are going to be jerks everywhere. Catcalls aren’t going to disappear because we teach church youth to be considerate for others’ feelings.  However, being able to have a place and friends one can feel safe with (which hopefully church can be) can help imo the rate of maturity and the ability to withstand the harassment when it comes. Unfortunately I know too many young ladies who fear or even hate Young Women’s because of how the other youth treat them. 

Edited by Calm
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15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not familiar with this.  Are you saying that there are places where young men (or others) are told to monitor what others are wearing?

If a leader gives them the impression or worse tells them it is appropriate for them to correct/comment on other youths’ appearance, why would they think they shouldn’t?

Edited by Calm

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

If a leader gives them the impression or worse tells them it is appropriate for them to correct/comment on other youths’ appearance, why would they think they shouldn’t?

Are you speaking in hypotheticals or about things that actually happen?

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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure what I took out of context.  I'm not putting forth any supposed agenda of my own here, but trying to understand why you are saying what you say.  Why shouldn't a young man address a woman about the appropriateness of her clothing?

This has been explained to you for forty pages, so no "not just once more."

You have no or social moral authority to do so.  How could you possibly think you do, particularly after all the wise and wonderful counsel given here by powerful and strong women?

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11 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

This has been explained to you for forty pages, so no "not just once more."

You have no or social moral authority to do so.  How could you possibly think you do, particularly after all the wise and wonderful counsel given here by powerful and strong women?

Ok, so if it's inappropriate for a man to speak to a woman about her clothing then conversely it's inappropriate for a woman to speak to a man about his.  We are separate and "never the twain shall meet."

Edited by ksfisher

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17 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Perhaps envy or coveting would be a better one? We shouldn’t display our success so that others won’t feel envious? I certainly have never heard this taught. 
 

 

Interesting idea.  There will be those who will envy even if no display is given, but I think you make a good point. I wonder if it might have been hinted at in a GC talk sometime in the past?  Seems familiar somehow, but I can't pin it down.

In my previous ward there were a number of very well-off members, but none of them seemed to be into displays of wealth.    

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3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Google men’s beach volleyball images.

Wow, that's amazing.  I've actually never watched men's beach volleyball, so this was a surprise -- the men are definitely more covered up than the women in that sport.

 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Calm isn't asking whether or not the church has taught us to be a good example though.  She asking, has the church ever taught that someone shouldn't buy a new car because it might influence others to covet?  Has the church ever taught that someone shouldn't wear an expensive watch because it might influence someone to steal, etc.

 

We have been told not to be unkind or judgmental because our actions might drive a fellow member from activity or prevent a potential convert from joining. 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Calm isn't asking whether or not the church has taught us to be a good example though.  She asking, has the church ever taught that someone shouldn't buy a new car because it might influence others to covet?  Has the church ever taught that someone shouldn't wear an expensive watch because it might influence someone to steal, etc.

I think we are getting way off track with this. There is no comparison here.  Is buying a new car or watch a violation of some church standard?  As we all agree - we are not accountable for other peoples thoughts and choices. We are accountable for our influence through living the principles and standards of the gospel.  If we are violating those standards and they are negatively influencing others, than we are accountable for that influence.  It also needs to be pointed out that this issue is not only about the influence it has on young men, it is about living the standards of modesty, and it is also about empowering women against the corrosive effects of the media.  I am honest to goodness more concerned about the young women than the young men.  In other words, this is not simply about how others choose to see us (we have all acknowledged we can't control that), it is about our influence we have by living or not living the standards and the corrosive effect that not living the standards can have on us and others. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Are you speaking in hypotheticals or about things that actually happen?

I know of youth in similar situations, how they interpret what is and isn’t told to them about themselves or how they should act. Also know of excuses some have given for how they treat other youth and why they see it as okay., one of which is no one told me I shouldn’t do it.

I am more familiar with the introverted child as both my kids as well as myself were primarily introverted as youth. In addition, probably because I went through it, others have shared their experiences with me. Plus I have studied it a lot due to my daughter’s extreme social anxiety. 

Shy kids are often interpreted by other kids as being just quiet or reserved, as in control of their emotions when the opposite is true, the turmoil is just inside. So it is assumed they can handle a lot more than they actually can.  I have seen adults screw up in how they interact with those who aren’t obviously expressive in emotions, so even the most conscientious kids trying to help are going to misstep big time at times. 

Got to go. Will say more later if someone else doesn’t. 

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12 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think we are getting way off track with this. There is no comparison here.  Is buying a new car or watch a violation of some church standard?  As we all agree - we are not accountable for other peoples thoughts and choices. We are accountable for our influence through living the principles and standards of the gospel.  If we are violating those standards and they are negatively influencing others, than we are accountable for that influence.  It also needs to be pointed out that this issue is not only about the influence it has on young men, it is about living the standards of modesty, and it is also about empowering women against the corrosive effects of the media.  I am honest to goodness more concerned about the young women than the young men.  In other words, this is not simply about how others choose to see us (we have all acknowledged we can't control that), it is about our influence we have by living or not living the standards and the corrosive effect that not living the standards can have on us and others. 

 

 

Well, when it comes to modest clothing, the scriptures, in general are not discussing hem length. The pride cycle and riches seem to be a much bigger problem for God. 

Topical Guide

Apparel

See also Clothing

sewed fig leaves … made themselves aprons, Gen. 3:7 (Moses 4:13).

coats of skins, and clothed them, Gen. 3:21 (Moses 4:27).

woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, Deut. 22:5.

they which are gorgeously apparelled, Luke 7:25.

adorn themselves in modest apparel, 1 Tim. 2:9.

let it not be that outward adorning, 1 Pet. 3:3.

because of the costliness of your apparel, Jacob 2:13.

began … to wear very costly apparel, Alma 1:6 (4:6).

they did not wear costly apparel, Alma 1:27.

because of the coarseness of their apparel, Alma 32:2.

pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, Morm. 8:36.

let all thy garments be plain, D&C 42:40.

God … clothed in his glorious apparel, D&C 133:46 (133:48).

See also Lev. 6:10; Judg. 17:10; 2 Sam. 1:24; 12:20; 2 Chr. 5:12; Ps. 45:13; Prov. 31:22; Isa. 3:22; 32:11; Jer. 6:26; Dan. 9:3; 1 Thes. 5:22; Rev. 6:11; 19:8.

Even the 'modest apparel' reference is referring to gold and pearls. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/apparel?lang=eng

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4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I doubt it.  Which talk was that?  I don't remember it off hand.

"And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you." April 2005 General Conference 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/04/pornography?lang=eng&para=p27

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22 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Well, when it comes to modest clothing, the scriptures, in general are not discussing hem length. The pride cycle and riches seem to be a much bigger problem for God. 

Topical Guide

Apparel

See also Clothing

sewed fig leaves … made themselves aprons, Gen. 3:7 (Moses 4:13).

coats of skins, and clothed them, Gen. 3:21 (Moses 4:27).

woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, Deut. 22:5.

they which are gorgeously apparelled, Luke 7:25.

adorn themselves in modest apparel, 1 Tim. 2:9.

let it not be that outward adorning, 1 Pet. 3:3.

because of the costliness of your apparel, Jacob 2:13.

began … to wear very costly apparel, Alma 1:6 (4:6).

they did not wear costly apparel, Alma 1:27.

because of the coarseness of their apparel, Alma 32:2.

pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, Morm. 8:36.

let all thy garments be plain, D&C 42:40.

God … clothed in his glorious apparel, D&C 133:46 (133:48).

See also Lev. 6:10; Judg. 17:10; 2 Sam. 1:24; 12:20; 2 Chr. 5:12; Ps. 45:13; Prov. 31:22; Isa. 3:22; 32:11; Jer. 6:26; Dan. 9:3; 1 Thes. 5:22; Rev. 6:11; 19:8.

Even the 'modest apparel' reference is referring to gold and pearls. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/apparel?lang=eng

We live in different times today and thank goodness for modern prophets!  Our leaders today still warn against extravagance and teach moderation and modesty in those terms too though.

Older dispensations did not have to battle the corrosive effects of advertising and media that has essentially destroyed a healthy concept of body image/self-worth in our youth.  They didn’t battle the easy access to pornography that is destroying young men and triggered by immodest dress as influenced by the media...

Again, thank goodness for modern prophets who speak for God to our dispensation and unique needs and challenges.

Edited by pogi

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48 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think we are getting way off track with this. There is no comparison here.  Is buying a new car or watch a violation of some church standard?  As we all agree - we are not accountable for other peoples thoughts and choices. We are accountable for our influence through living the principles and standards of the gospel.  If we are violating those standards and they are negatively influencing others, than we are accountable for that influence.  It also needs to be pointed out that this issue is not only about the influence it has on young men, it is about living the standards of modesty, and it is also about empowering women against the corrosive effects of the media.  I am honest to goodness more concerned about the young women than the young men.  In other words, this is not simply about how others choose to see us (we have all acknowledged we can't control that), it is about our influence we have by living or not living the standards and the corrosive effect that not living the standards can have on us and others. 

 

 

Is showing your arms a violation of a church standard?  No. Is there a mission president in the United States who requires his sister missionaries to wear sweaters when they are around the elders so that the elders aren’t sexually influenced by them?  Yes  

Is wearing a modest one piece swimsuit to swim against church standards?  No. Are their church leaders who allow YM to wear swimsuits to a water party but so they aren’t allowed for YW?  Yes  

Unfortunately, this topic doesn’t just affect girls who aren’t following the standards. And Calm’s question is not as far off track as we wish it was. 

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