Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

What if I said that to you?

Sorry, I don't follow. Said what to me?

Quote

But I really don't care one iota about your opinion of my testimony. 

That is certainly not the impression your repeated posts on this matter are creating. :unknw:

Link to comment
1 hour ago, pogi said:

I feel that they are being misunderstood, at least in part.

The brethren can’t be held responsible for every isolated nutcase in the church, but problems with how modesty is taught are pervasive. So if the brethren’s words are being misinterpreted all over the church where does the buck stop? Doesn’t it stop with the brethren? 
 

“The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men. If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure.“

This may be true but it’s also lacking. The truth is, any woman the young man finds attractive may prompt improper thoughts even in the mind of a young man striving to be pure. She could be dressed in a cloth bag and still prompt improper thoughts. She might not even be present and still prompt improper thoughts. So whose problem is it? Teachings like these have given leaders and young men all over the church the grounds to approach women and tell them they are dressed too immodestly because they are having bad thoughts. Woman feel shamed. These are not isolated incidents. Tshirts over bathing suits? Missionaries forced to wear coats over dresses? If the brethren aren’t responsible to stop this nonsense who is? Do the brethren actually say the words “women are accountable for men’s thoughts?” No. The effect is the same, however, and the buck stops with them. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
Link to comment
21 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I worked with the 12 to 13 year old boys (Deacons) for a number of years, which included participation in the Scouting program.  There is a hard fast rule in BSA youth protection, that you need at least two leaders present on every activity and in providing transportation for the boys to and from activities.  We were not permitted to pick up or drop off a boy without another adult with us.  My following of those rules of course had nothing to do with my personal concerns or experiences, it was about following the requirements exactly to avoid even the appearance of inappropriate circumstance.  I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the Bishop was doing in following Church policy.  

I absolutely agree with the policy for adults and minors but I have a hard time understanding why a man can’t give me a ride home because of church policy. Probably more for his protection than mine since he is in a position of power.

Link to comment
7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

As a school orchestra teacher, I took great care not to be alone in my office with the door closed with a female student. If it were necessary, I made sure the window in the door was unblocked and I was visible from the outside. 

On orchestra trips I never hung out with a girl by herself and always tried to be in mixed  groups.  I never entered a girls’ motel room at bed check. 

We male teachers had to be careful when touching girls in pedagogical situations. I would ask if I could touch, but usually just avoided it. One of the most uncomfortable duties for male teachers was to enforce the school dress codes for girls.

I would follow the same protocols if the group were all adults. 

I also teach, and when holding office hours, even though my office has windows, I always the door ajar when a student (male or female) is in my office.

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

That is completely appropriate. Equal treatment for both genders. Adult to student interaction. If a boss refuses to ever have a closed door meeting with anyone, that is fine. It is when they single out women in the workplace, I have issues with it. 

 

In the workplace, a manager should not differentiate between men and women. 

Link to comment
22 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

That is completely appropriate. Equal treatment for both genders. Adult to student interaction. If a boss refuses to ever have a closed door meeting with anyone, that is fine. It is when they single out women in the workplace, I have issues with it. 

 

Agreed.  Any policy or practice has to be applied equally.  If not, then it is discriminatory. 
 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nope, never. Though popular media make it seem that Americans can compare nearly anything to baseball.

In dating, some guys brag about how far they can get with a girl, from striking out, to first base, ending with a home run. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

:rolleyes:

No offence, but I much prefer how I was raised.

No offence taken.

It must be great living in Paradise! But there wouldn’t be room for all of us.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
Link to comment
3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Yep, happened to my daughter. They never forget.

No. You don't forget it.  It bothered me when I was younger.  I felt picked on by many adults.   I still wonder why some felt the need to pick on me and not the other girls, who wore much tighter and shorter clothes. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No, but we can certainly seek to create it in our own lives, homes, and wards/branches ... and then invite everybody in!

Sincere questions....where you live, the guys don’t hit on the girls and visa versa, and there are no concerns with male or female modesty?

Link to comment

Never mind

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment

Never mind

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have certainly lived places that are almost exactly like that. To give just one example, I moderated a student discussion at a university's law school once, and the students couldn't exactly define premarital sex. Did it include kissing? Hand-holding? People who haven't lived in 'traditional' societies outside of the West will assume that they're just like the US only repressed -- i.e., all the same things (including thoughts and desires) are happening, but people just hide it better -- but it's not true. Most of what we think is normal is socially constructed. People learn ways of being from the dominant narratives. If we don't tell the West's stories, we don't get Western personalities or the West's maladies. It's really that simple in many cases. And that's one more reason why I hate watching Hollywood and the rest of the Western entertainment juggernaut colonise the non-Western imagination.

To give another example, but from a more educational angle, when I taught in America, our health and psychology textbooks were filled with discussions about normal adolescent development, and the books in my English class were filled with stories that were shaped by these assumptions. But most of what was in those books was alien to the culture I had just come from, where it was completely normal for a father and his teenage son to walk down the street holding hands or arms-around-shoulders. And then one reads in an American textbook that it's important, necessary even, for adolescents to assert authority against their parents? Not if the culture around them doesn't teach them that it's normal. Tell kids that affection for parents only intensifies as they grow older, model it, and that's what you get.

I don't live in one of those places now if by 'where you live' you mean a nation or society.

But I was raised in a home where I didn't know what 'hitting on girls' was. (It was -- and still is, really -- a completely foreign concept to me.) And where men didn't talk about women's bodies as objects of lust or desire. Where women fed babies at home and in public gatherings without having to worry if the men around them had been overly sexualised and would therefore leer. It was really beautiful.

And so I conscientiously choose to live in one of those places still, if only in my own life, my thoughts, my actions. As a Church member, I feel like I've been given the very tools I need to preserve and even grow that beauty in my life. I'm deeply grateful.

Thanks for your answer. I was raised in a similar home.
 

Things have not always been like this. Not to say “those were the good old days,” but not all change is good. Well, maybe they were the good old days in some ways. 😉

Edited by Bernard Gui
Link to comment
On 10/27/2019 at 11:49 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I have lived places where it is blindingly clear to everyone, including Church members, that men are far more spiritual than women, the latter being characterised in the local culture as both intellectually and spiritually dull, stubborn, prone to cling to ridiculous superstition, more bound by tradition, inclined to be dishonest and petty, temptresses, etc. You are projecting your personal apprehension of a singular and culturally bound phenomenon onto the rest of the world, and it simply doesn't fit.

You mean it doesn't fit YOUR present cultural paradigm?

Just to clarify then, what you now believe about the relationship between men and women, since it appears to agree with most others on this board, is NOT culturally determined but is the last and final non cultural absolutely certain Paradigm for the ages?  In fact such a concept would not even be a paradigm but the final TRUTH

So we have finally discovered the TRVTH written in stone and have now at last surpassed culture?

Is that what you're saying?

And your superior qualifications in history of culture have shown you that finally we have reached the TRUTH?

I look at moral paradigms as open to choice since none of them can be determined scientifically.

I think we have a duty to determine our own testimonies through prayer and study and come up with our own model of God and our relationship with him.

Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that you are saying that you have found the final Truth For All Mankind and these issues are no longer culturally determined but YOU have the TRUTH. 

Incidentally if that is what you believe it would be fine with me I would just disagree with it.

And let me extend that question to the rest of the board. Is what you all apparently believe now the absolute final truth about men and women?

As I have said before what I believe about men and women is based upon my testimony and my own understanding which I have found works for me to bring me closer to God. The idea that someone would disagree with someone's testimony and tell them that their path does not lead to God is not for them to determine.

That kind of slavish obedience to "Authority" leads to Jim Jones and drinking the Kool-Aid.

I am beginning to understand the problems now forming about freedom of religion better and better by the minute.

Differ from the cultural beliefs of the moment and you will be shouted down.

Sorry folks I will never do that and will never obey the common will.  I do what I feel will bring me closer to the savior no matter what anyone else tells me. 

What beliefs I need to maintain in order to become closer to the savior are my own business and no one else's. Perhaps I need those beliefs to surpass things that have happened to me in my childhood, but to attack someone for the constructs they have needed to make in their life is pure savagery.

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The brethren can’t be held responsible for every isolated nutcase in the church, but problems with how modesty is taught are pervasive. So if the brethren’s words are being misinterpreted all over the church where does the buck stop? Doesn’t it stop with the brethren? 
 

“The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men. If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure.“

This may be true but it’s also lacking. The truth is, any woman the young man finds attractive may prompt improper thoughts even in the mind of a young man striving to be pure. She could be dressed in a cloth bag and still prompt improper thoughts. She might not even be present and still prompt improper thoughts. So whose problem is it? Teachings like these have given leaders and young men all over the church the grounds to approach women and tell them they are dressed too immodestly because they are having bad thoughts. Woman feel shamed. These are not isolated incidents. Tshirts over bathing suits? Missionaries forced to wear coats over dresses? If the brethren aren’t responsible to stop this nonsense who is? Do the brethren actually say the words “women are accountable for men’s thoughts?” No. The effect is the same, however, and the buck stops with them. 

I mentioned earlier my son Persistissimo’s experience as a missionary in Colorado. In one university city, some coeds thought it was funny to flash the missionaries when they came to their doors. This happened more than once.
 

This raises some questions.
 

How does this work with the bolded statement above? Did the young ladies bear any responsibility, or was it all on the elders to keep their thoughts in check? Would getting flashed prompt the same reaction as coming to the door in a cloth bag? Do intentions affect the balance of the equation? Would it be the same if some guys thought it would be funny to flash the sister missionaries?

Edited by Bernard Gui
Link to comment
11 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I thought that might be the case, but it still seems a bit outdated.

Actually, in the #metoo era, it is quite apropos. Prudent, too.

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I mentioned earlier my son Persistissimo’s experience as a missionary in Colorado. In one university city, some coeds thought it was funny to flash the missionaries when they came to their doors. This happened more than once. How does this work with the bolded statement above? Did the young ladies bear any responsibility, or was it all on the elders to keep their thoughts in check? How do intentions affect the equation?

This happened on my mission. You laugh it off and move on. It did not turn us into lust crazed rapists or anything.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...