Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[juliann]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

The one thing I have noticed is that many women on this thread are very angry and feel that the church places all blame and accountability on the women, while letting men off the hook.     

Then you have not really listened to what the women are saying, Pogi. That you then go on to defend men sort of demonstrates that. 

 

[MustardSeed]

I wear heels because they make my short leg muscles look longer and more elegant.  It also makes me walk taller.  

Also, style. 

My gma was a classy lady and wore heels. I like to think I look like her.  

Also, short heels look unattractive to my eye.  So I go for 4 inch. 

I also wear birks. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

And here come the inevitable man tears as women reject the mansplaining.....

🤧 Give me a few minutes.

Thank you.  I’m over it now.

 

I am interested in your thoughts about Wendy Shalit’s book. She defines and defends modesty from an Orthodox Jewish woman’s perspective. Sister Gui has recommended it.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

This may or may not be on topic. I love my husband dearly but something that makes me want to run out the door is when he reacts badly to women in movies or what not, that have sex w/o marriage. He calls them slutty. I put down the gauntlet every time and get so irate over it that I'm ready for a divorce. It's because I think women are more than their chastity. But in the church we were taught it's a sin next to murder. Well whomever taught my husband really drilled in some crazy stuff. Because every show or movie, he'll say something. I get so upset and he is too immature I guess to keep his mouth shut.

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, juliann said:

Then you have not really listened to what the women are saying, Pogi. That you then go on to defend men sort of demonstrates that. 

 

Perhaps we are both falling short on the listening, because I don't feel like my point and purpose here is to defend men.

Help me understand what I am misunderstanding?  Am I misunderstanding the sense of anger? Or, the part about women accusing our prophets about letting men off the hook and placing all accountability and blame for men's actions on women?  

If anger is not the right word, help me understand what it is you are all feeling then?  Is it just frustration? It has already been expressed that women feel "pain" and "immense burden" and that it is all getting "old and tiring".  I personally would feel anger towards my leaders if they placed what I perceived as an unrighteous burden on my shoulder - but if that is not the case with you, I will accept that; but it might help to be aware that it comes off that way, at least to me.  My purpose is to both understand what women are experiencing and why, and perhaps share a different perspective that might help alleviate some of that suffering. But I would also like you to understand why I, and our prophets, think that women (and men) have a moral responsibility and accountability in how we dress.  While I don't agree with our leaders in their approach with everything, I can at least appreciate the why, and I am trying to communicate that why in a fair and reasonable way - you perceive that as me defending men, but I see it as defending true core principles that I believe with all my heart.  I live by principles, and try to always speak up for those principles, even if it is unpopular. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by pogi

[Rain]

8 hours ago, rchorse said:

The real issue in church culture (I've found no actual doctrine to support it), in my opinion, is that women are portrayed as spiritual and men as carnal. I can't count how many times I've heard in priesthood and other meeetings that women are just plain superior to men when it comes to spiritual things.

The main problem that I see with this is that it just ends up excusing bad behavior by men. Organizations, especially religious ones, typically get out of people what they expect from them. In American church culture, at least, women are expected to be perfect and righteous, while the expectation of men is that they are lazy and can't get anything right. In my last ward, we assigned the Elders Quorum to handle the ward Christmas party, and everyone in the ward was convinced it would be a disaster because you just can't rely on the men for things like that. In reality, it turned out just as well as any other Christmas party.

I think the whole modesty discussion is a symptom of the larger problem mentioned above. Those loser men just can't handle their thoughts, so it's up to the women to fix it again. Men need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and requiring extreme levels of modesty from women just handicaps them, as has been said.

We need to start expecting more of men in the church and in society and not just offload responsibility to the women.

This is a really interesting idea. I wonder if anyone has looked into it. 

I remember when I was in my teens (80s) the idea that men were less spiritual was being taught at church by people (haven't found anything by actual church sources any time I have looked). I don't remember anything specific about modesty. 

I know somewhere in the 90s we started hearing much more about immodesty and how it affects men. 

I'd love to see if anyone can find actual writen correlation between the two and not just go off of memories.

By the way, I think the idea that men are less spiritual stinks and I hated that my husband and sons were hearing that. It just isn't true.

What I've found with us as a couple is how great the plan is of having us become one - at times he is stronger spiritually. At times I am. As one we lift up each other when we are the strong one. 

[cherryTreez]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why do women buy shoes with 6 inch heels?

To be normal height! and look awesome doing it.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Because women want to be sexy or appear to be feminine.   Because men want to be businesslike  or appear to be competent (sometimes to appear reverent).

Shame on you women for being such a tease.  

Come on!  Tell us your innermost motivation.  To test your wow power?  

This is creepy.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Perhaps we are both falling short on the listening, because I don't feel like my point and purpose here is to defend men.

Help me understand what I am misunderstanding?  Am I misunderstanding the sense of anger? Or, the part about women accusing our prophets about letting men off the hook and placing all accountability and blame for men's actions on women?  

If anger is not the right word, help me understand what it is you are all feeling then?  Is it just frustration? It has already been expressed that women feel "pain" and "immense burden" and that it is all getting "old and tiring".  I personally would feel anger towards my leaders if they placed what I perceived as an unrighteous burden on my shoulder - but if that is not the case with you, I will accept that; but it might help to be aware that it comes off that way, at least to me.  My purpose is to both understand what women are experiencing and why, and perhaps share a different perspective that might help alleviate some of that suffering. But I would also like you to understand why I, and our prophets, think that women (and men) have a moral responsibility and accountability in how we dress.  While I don't agree with our leaders in their approach with everything, I can at least appreciate the why, and I am trying to communicate that why in a fair and reasonable way - you perceive that as me defending men, but I see it as defending true core principles that I believe with all my heart.  I live by principles, and try to always speak up for those principles, even if it is unpopular. 

This is really what it comes down to.  I feel like a broken record on this, but Elder Bednar says:

Doctrine is: 

Quote

a truth of salvation revealed by a loving Heavenly Father. Gospel doctrines are eternal, do not change, and pertain to the eternal progression and exaltation of Heavenly Father’s sons and daughters. Doctrines such as the nature of the Godhead, the plan of happiness, and the Atonement of Jesus Christ are foundational, fundamental, and comprehensive. The core doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ are relatively few in number.

A principle is:

Quote

a doctrinally based guideline for the righteous exercise of moral agency. Principles are subsets or components of broader gospel truths. Principles provide direction. Correct principles always are based upon and arise from doctrines, do not change, and answer the question of “what?” Many principles can grow out of and be associated with a single doctrine . . . A principle is not a behavior or a specific action. Rather, principles provide basic guidelines for behavior and action. (pp. 154–155)

And the author of the article adds:  Some of the important gospel principles Elder Bednar identifies include: faith in Christ, repentance of sins, obedience to God, and service to others. Note that these principles are general guidelines and do not identify specific behaviors.

Applications are: 

Quote

are the actual behaviors, action steps, practices, or procedures by which gospel doctrines and principles are enacted in our lives. Whereas doctrines and principles do not change, applications appropriately can vary according to needs and circumstances. Applications answer the question of “how.” Many applications can grow out of and be associated with a single principle. (p. 156)

And the author of the article adds: Applications are very specific behaviors that take place in particular circumstances. If these applications are based on sound gospel principles that flow out of eternal doctrine, we have some confidence we are making the correct decision. However, we can only be confident of our application of a principle if we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us.

EVERY SINGLE TIME we have a discussion here on modesty it really centers around how other people think females should apply an application.  It is not about principles.  It is about how one person feels another person should apply clothing and it so often distorts doctrine and principles. It's like people don't trust the principles and doctrines to stand on their own - no we must force people to apply things the way we would apply them.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Rain

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

What you made up is that I would sign on.

Time will tell if that is good move.

I’m not advocating for anything. I am asking why the disparity. If you don’t care to converse, that’s fine.

 

 

My husbands opinion...biology. You also have to ignore historical gender norms in dress. I think men at times wear less. Why does this even matter? Why can't female athletes wear what they want for whatever reason they want to if it's approved by their school or sport? I honestly, personally, had this debate with you before. It's tedious. It's exhausting and discouraging. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Why do men tie things around their neck? Why do they wear suit jackets over shirts in the summer? 

oh my gosh

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Because they want to.  

Avoidance of the issue only makes it more obvious

 

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

To be normal height! and look awesome doing it.

Uh huh. I am also sure that's why I models who are 6ft tall wear them.

Pardon me for apparently hitting a sore spot, which as usual will remain henceforth unmentioned.

 

[bsjkki]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

EVERY SINGLE TIME we have a discussion here on modesty it really centers around how other people think females should apply an application.  It is not about principles.  It is about how one person feels another person should apply clothing and it so often distorts doctrine and principles. It's like people don't trust the principles and doctrines to stand on  their own - no we must force people to apply things the way we would apply them.

Thank you Rain!!!! Maybe, just maybe, this comment could prove a lightbulb moment for some. 🙌

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

My husbands opinion...biology. You also have to ignore historical gender norms in dress. I think men at times wear less. Why does this even matter? Why can't female athletes wear what they want for whatever reason they want to if it's approved by their school or sport? I honestly, personally, had this debate with you before. It's tedious. It's exhausting and discouraging. 

You are free to ignore my posts. Bye.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is really what it comes down to.  I feel like a broken record on this, but Elder Bednar says:

Doctrine is: 

A principle is:

Applications are: 

EVERY SINGLE TIME we have a discussion here on modesty it really centers around how other people think females should apply an application.  It is not about principles.  It is about how one person feels another person should apply clothing and it so often distorts doctrine and principles. It's like people don't trust the principles and doctrines to stand on  their own - no we must force, people to apply things the way we would apply them.

Thanks for sharing this.  Let me share with you what principles guide me in this - 1) accountability (for our influence on others), 2) service, 3) charity, 4) humility, 5) chastity, 6) dignity and honor of ourselves and our sexual being.  For me, it is not about the clothing as much as it is about these principles.  How we choose to dress is simply one application of these principles.  From the very beginning of this thread I have stated that I think the brethren would do good to not have specific dress codes (applications) but should instead teach general principles and let women govern their own decisions in dress based on the principles I listed above.  The push back I keep getting is on principle #1, accountability, as if we are not somehow responsible or accountable for our positive or negative influence on others through how we dress.  I simply don't understand it.  I understand the frustration and emotional toll that women feel in regard to the demanding and conflicting expectations of society and the church.  I especially understand their frustration with some of the whack job attempts of some leaders who take the application of these principles to the extreme in enforcing ridiculous dress codes etc., but I don't understand why these basic principles are being questioned.

More than anything, I detest the message and role that the media and society places on women.  I HATE that their self-worth is tied to image and sex.  This message above all needs to be combated.  Perhaps the brethren could approach it in a better way, but I at least understand and respect what they are trying to do.  This message destroys women and it destroys men. It affects us both in adverse ways. 

[Bernard Gui]

33 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is really what it comes down to.  I feel like a broken record on this, but Elder Bednar says:

Doctrine is: 

A principle is:

Applications are: 

EVERY SINGLE TIME we have a discussion here on modesty it really centers around how other people think females should apply an application.  It is not about principles.  It is about how one person feels another person should apply clothing and it so often distorts doctrine and principles. It's like people don't trust the principles and doctrines to stand on  their own - no we must force people to apply things the way we would apply them.

What would the best application of this doctrine, principle, and  application look like? Is something like this a possible solution, or just part of the problem?
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/10/courage-to-choose-modesty?lang=eng

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Thanks for trying to explain your perspective.  From my perspective, I think that there are many, many other perfectly good explanations (I have shared one potential already) as to why women get the message far more then men do (but we do, I promise).  Imagine asking any general authority if men are responsible and accountable for how they dress, just like women are...I think we all know intuitively that they would answer in the affirmative.  To conclude otherwise would be madness.  I don't think our leaders are mad (cuckoo).  I think they direct messages where they see the biggest problem.  It doesn't mean that men are off the hook or that none of them have a problem, it is simply that women have higher expectations and pressure from society to dress in sexually seductive and revealing ways, and therefore do more so then men. 

It is like por*ography and lust messages - Because men generally are the only ones getting this message, should we conclude that our leaders don't view women as responsible or accountable in this area?  Of course not.  Our leaders simply diret most of the attention to men, because that is where they see the problem the most, and not that women aren't also susceptible to issues there. 

The one thing I have noticed is that many women on this thread are very angry and feel that the church places all blame and accountability on the women, while letting men off the hook.  I disagree. They clearly place accountability and responsibility on the men for how they perceive women.  We probably get messages about lust and maintaining pure thoughts and avoiding unclean thoughts, words, and actions at least equally as much as women get messages about dress.  In the last 40 years of my life, there have probably been at least 2-3 messages about this in every single priesthood session, twice per year - not counting young men and elders quorum, church magazines, videos, etc. etc. etc.  The church clearly does NOT place all the blame on the women.    

I don't think any of the women on this thread believe that the church places all the blame on women.  I also think that most of the women on this thread understand that modest dress generally impacts women more than men, because of society and cultural norms, and don't find it unreasonable that the church addresses women's clothing more often than they do men's.   Like you said above, that's just a fact of life and we live in this world and understand that.

I think that a lot women are angry for three reasons (in no particular order):  

1)  the way that the leaders of the church have dealt with modesty and girls in the past (and some in the present though it's getting better), and connected it to the righteousness of boys, has created a lot of negative emotional and mental baggage that we are still, as adult women, having to fight our way through and against.  That is frustrating.

2)  A lot of men refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of that baggage or the double standard that sometimes took place.  Neither are many men interested in learning how to keep it from happening to the next generation of women.  Instead they choose to focus on how the topic affects them, how they have suffered similarly, or how they think women should respond.  That is also frustrating.  

3)  A lot of women grew up in the church being told that they can't wear swimsuits (even full piece ones sometimes) or regular length shorts to outdoor/swimming activities because 'modesty' while watching the boys their age being given no such rules, sometimes participating in church activities without shirts on without any leaders batting an eye.  Double standards, especially when you are the recipient of the inequality, are always frustrating. 

For what it's worth, I appreciate you trying to have this conversation, and doing it without making it all about you and your feelings.  It's hard to discuss something when you've never experienced it, and it's also hard not to dismiss pain that you've never felt.  Thank you for being willing.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This may or may not be on topic. I love my husband dearly but something that makes me want to run out the door is when he reacts badly to women in movies or what not, that have sex w/o marriage. He calls them slutty. I put down the gauntlet every time and get so irate over it that I'm ready for a divorce. It's because I think women are more than their chastity. But in the church we were taught it's a sin next to murder. Well whomever taught my husband really drilled in some crazy stuff. Because every show or movie, he'll say something. I get so upset and he is too immature I guess to keep his mouth shut.

Does he not think less of the men for having sex outside of marriage, or is it just the women?

[pogi]

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

The bold are the parts I don’t agree with. I dress based on the cultural customs for what is expected in an therapy office setting regardless of gender relarions: professional but slightly casual. And that it fits my temple garments. The end. With older couples i veer a little more professional to make up for a young looking face. If the cultural custom for my job was to wear scuba gear, i’d be wearing scuba gear. I do not take into consideration what may “influence men.” I’m tired of placating an impossible standard, so I haven’t thought about that in years. And real-life implications means that the “standard” is perpetually shifting and often individually contrived. Even in the best circumstances, it’s felt invasive and like having your body up for social scrutiny while trying to do mundane tasks. So I’m done trying to fit it. Breastfeeding is also uncomfortable for a number of men (and my mother, for that matter). I don’t care.  They can squirm while i feed my baby in the way I’m comfortable with and work through their own cultural baggage surrounding s*xual boundaries and ideas of propriety.

I have acknowledged that culture plays a huge role in all of this, which is why I think we should avoid specific dress codes and instead teach principles to live by.  Most of the time, if you dress according to culturally acceptable standards, you are not going to a problem for most men within that culture. I think dressing that way works most of the time and that is fine.  However, there are women (and men) who intentionally dress with the intent to sexually arouse the opposite sex and draw attention to themselves.  They basically wear sex.  I am sure you have seen it.  That is very different from how you dress, I am sure.  So, I don't have a problem with how you dress.  I am not talking about you or probably most women in the church, I am talking about those who wear sex for attention.  Do you feel like these women (and men) have any accountability at all for their potential influence on others for good or evil?

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by pogi

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks for sharing this.  Let me share with you what principles guide me in this - 1) accountability (for our influence on others), 2) service, 3) charity, 4) humility, 5) chastity, 6) dignity and honor of ourselves and our sexual being.  For me, it is not about the clothing as much as it is about these principles.  How we choose to dress is simply one application of these principles.  From the very beginning of this thread I have stated that I think the brethren would do good to not have specific dress codes (applications) but should instead teach general principles and let women govern their own decisions in dress based on the principles I listed above.  The push back I keep getting is on principle #1, accountability, as if we are not somehow responsible or accountable for our positive or negative influence on others through how we dress.  I simply don't understand it.  I understand the frustration and emotional toll that women feel in regard to the demanding and conflicting expectations of society and the church.  I especially understand their frustration with some of the whack job attempts of some leaders who take the application of these principles to the extreme in enforcing ridiculous dress codes etc., but I don't understand why these basic principles are being questioned.

More than anything, I detest the message and role that the media and society places on women.  I HATE that their self-worth is tied to image and sex.  This message above all needs to be combated.  Perhaps the brethren could approach it in a better way, but I at least understand and respect what they are trying to do.  This message destroys women and it destroys men. It affects us both in adverse ways. 

I think I probably used to think like you do on accountability. I've had a shift on the way I view things the last few years because of my experiences as a mom. I have come to understand how huge of a thing agency is. In a nutshell I have learned first hand that all the motherly faith in the world won't change the agency of my child.

So how does that work where in the scriptures it says that parents are responsible for what they teach children? It really comes down to I am responsible for how and what I teach them. I am not responsible for what they do with those teachings. 

It is the same way with modesty. I, as a woman, am accountable to Heavenly Father for how I apply service, charity etc.  I am not accountable with how a man reacts to my application. I am accountable for my actions, not the relationship between us.

It's a subtle difference, but important. 

[Rain]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What would the best application of this doctrine, principle, and  application look like? Is something like this a possible solution, or just part of the problem?
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/10/courage-to-choose-modesty?lang=eng

Ok first, you can't have an application of an application.

Second, what specific doctrine or principle are you talking about? 

[Peacefully]

I’ve been reading this thread with much interest. A bishop called me into his office once and said my daughter needed to wear shirts that weren’t so tight to church because it made his son uncomfortable. I told him that my daughter was just more well endowed than other girls but still wanted to wear cute, trendy clothes. I don’t think we ever agreed on the best course action and I don’t remember talking to my daughter about it. It didn’t sit well with me at that time but I wasn’t one to make waves. It would be a different conversation now that I’m older and more sure of myself. I would let the Bishop know that my daughter is not responsible for his son’s thoughts.

On another note, I’ve found out that at least one object lesson that was used in YW caused my daughter to equate someone being raped with being a chewed up piece of gum. She has only recently told me how that message messed her up for a long time. Please make sure you know what is being taught to your YW and YM. 

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think any of the women on this thread believe that the church places all the blame on women.  I also think that most of the women on this thread understand that modest dress generally impacts women more than men, because of society and cultural norms, and don't find it unreasonable that the church addresses women's clothing more often than they do men's.   Like you said above, that's just a fact of life and we live in this world and understand that.

I think that a lot women are angry for three reasons (in no particular order):  

1)  the way that the leaders of the church have dealt with modesty and girls in the past (and some in the present though it's getting better), and connected it to the righteousness of boys, has created a lot of negative emotional and mental baggage that we are still, as adult women, having to fight our way through and against.  That is frustrating.

2)  A lot of men refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of that baggage or the double standard that sometimes took place.  Neither are many men interested in learning how to keep it from happening to the next generation of women.  Instead they choose to focus on how the topic affects them, how they have suffered similarly, or how they think women should respond.  That is also frustrating.  

3)  A lot of women grew up in the church being told that they can't wear swimsuits (even full piece ones sometimes) or regular length shorts to outdoor/swimming activities because 'modesty' while watching the boys their age being given no such rules, sometimes participating in church activities without shirts on without any leaders batting an eye.  Double standards, especially when you are the recipient of the inequality, are always frustrating. 

For what it's worth, I appreciate you trying to have this conversation, and doing it without making it all about you and your feelings.  It's hard to discuss something when you've never experienced it, and it's also hard not to dismiss pain that you've never felt.  Thank you for being willing.

Ditto.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think any of the women on this thread believe that the church places all the blame on women.  I also think that most of the women on this thread understand that modest dress generally impacts women more than men, because of society and cultural norms, and don't find it unreasonable that the church addresses women's clothing more often than they do men's.   Like you said above, that's just a fact of life and we live in this world and understand that.

I think that a lot women are angry for three reasons (in no particular order):  

1)  the way that the leaders of the church have dealt with modesty and girls in the past (and some in the present though it's getting better), and connected it to the righteousness of boys, has created a lot of negative emotional and mental baggage that we are still, as adult women, having to fight our way through and against.  That is frustrating.

2)  A lot of men refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of that baggage or the double standard that sometimes took place.  Neither are many men interested in learning how to keep it from happening to the next generation of women.  Instead they choose to focus on how the topic affects them, how they have suffered similarly, or how they think women should respond.  That is also frustrating.  

3)  A lot of women grew up in the church being told that they can't wear swimsuits (even full piece ones sometimes) or regular length shorts to outdoor/swimming activities because 'modesty' while watching the boys their age being given no such rules, sometimes participating in church activities without shirts on without any leaders batting an eye.  Double standards, especially when you are the recipient of the inequality, are always frustrating. 

For what it's worth, I appreciate you trying to have this conversation, and doing it without making it all about you and your feelings.  It's hard to discuss something when you've never experienced it, and it's also hard not to dismiss pain that you've never felt.  Thank you for being willing.

Thank you for this. 

Quote

I don't think any of the women on this thread believe that the church places all the blame on women.

Just to explain what I am seeing - I have seen over and over from many different posters that modesty dress standards places all accountability on women and little to no accountability on men for how they react. I am trying to correct that misconception.  We absolutely are held accountable and are taught better than that. 

I see the double standard and understand the frustration, and I agree that the message and delivery needs some work.