Modestly Level 11

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Or maybe it's just a public perception thing. 

First year out on my mission (still fairly new), my companion and I went Christmas shopping at the local mall. It was on a P-day, but we were wearing our proselyting clothes as we were supposed to (since "shopping" doesn't really demand "other clothing more appropriate for a specific activity" in my book).

Anyway, while we were there, we ran into multiple members who came up to us and asked what we were doing at the mall. Shouldn't we be out working? 

We explained that it was our preparation day and whatnot, but they clearly gave us the impression that they felt we were doing something inappropriate - even though we weren't.

Next year, I went shopping in my civvies instead. Lesson learned.  

 

Same thing with “hugging” the opposite sex. There is not rule, at all, about it. However, there is a pervasive thing among members and missioanries that is forbidden and a rule because it’s considered flirting. What silly things we make our missionaries do.

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

Update:

So I got some more details. 

It's definitely a rule based on the Elders in the mission.  If all the sisters have a "sisters only" meeting, they don't have to wear sweaters or jackets in the building.  Even if it's a meeting where the Elders don't have to wear coats, the sisters do need to wear sweaters or jackets.  The sisters always have to wear sweaters or jackets for Church meetings, but if they're at the building for another type of activity during the week and there are no Elders there, they don't have to wear sweaters or jackets even if there are men from the ward there.

Also, none of the missionaries are allowed to go into any indoor mall.  They can enter a store that has an entrance to the outside, but if the only entrance is to the indoor mall, they can't enter the mall to go in.

Apparently the basic missionary rules, the ones that missionaries agree to abide by, and are approved by the COB, are not enough for this MP.  He needs to add his own.  His rules apply only to the Women, not to the Elders, which is wrong and descrimitory. This Pharisaical rule is not only misogynistic, it also demeans men.  I was a young man once, and I was an Elder.  I could perfectly well control my thoughts and actions in mixed company.  I would be offended by anyone who thought otherwise.  This MP is way out of line. 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by sunstoned

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, sunstoned said:

Apparently the basic missionary rules, the ones that missionaries agree to abide by, and are approved by the COB, are not enough for this MP.  He needs to add his own.  His rules apply only to the Women, not to the Elders, which is wrong and descrimitory. This Pharisaical rule is not only is misogynistic, but it also demeans men.  I was a young man once, and I was an Elder.  I could perfectly well control my thoughts and actions in mixed company.  I would be offended by anyone who thought otherwise.  This MP is way out of line. 

 

Maybe the sister missionaries in Cinepro's daughter's mission could start wearing scarfs on their heads too. Send a message!

[sunstoned]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe the sister missionaries in Cinepro's daughter's mission could start wearing scarfs on their heads too. Send a message!

It would be interesting to know it the MP's wife is under the same clothing restriction. 

From the outside looking in, this kind of thing looks weird and culty.  

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Or maybe it's just a public perception thing. 

First year out on my mission (still fairly new), my companion and I went Christmas shopping at the local mall. It was on a P-day, but we were wearing our proselyting clothes as we were supposed to (since "shopping" doesn't really demand "other clothing more appropriate for a specific activity" in my book).

Anyway, while we were there, we ran into multiple members who came up to us and asked what we were doing at the mall. Shouldn't we be out working? 

We explained that it was our preparation day and whatnot, but they clearly gave us the impression that they felt we were doing something inappropriate - even though we weren't.

Next year, I went shopping in my civvies instead. Lesson learned.  

 

Wouldn’t the same problem exist for stores that had street entrances though?

[Hamba Tuhan]

I visited my sister in America some years ago. She lives in a dusty mining town in the American West. I attended elders quorum on the Sunday in a room full of men, half of them converts, all wearing their Sunday best: cowboy shirts, string ties, polished boots, new jeans, and belts with big buckles. All of them but one had facial hair. Those who worked in the mine had a twelve-hour workday including the hour ride on the bus to and from the mine, leaving at 6am and returning at 6pm.

Awkwardly, the elders quorum president let everyone know that the new mission president had introduced some new rules: those going on splits with the full-time missionaries needed to be dressed and groomed the same: white shirts, ties, no facial hair. In addition, dinner appointments could occur only between the hours of 5pm and 6pm, and of course husbands had to be present. Well, I thought to myself, there go both splits and dinner appointments!

Sometimes mission presidents are nuts.

[MustardSeed]

So women just need to cover up with sweaters and jackets when the men are in the vicinity? 

 

Hmm.  Sounds pretty icky to me.  Says very little of the men, and is pretty degrading to the women. Imo. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

I would enjoy seeing you smile more.  Would you smile for me, now, please?

No, I don’t smile on command, but only when it comes naturally and find it weird that you are asking for it.  Especially when there is a good chance I am older than you and not some little girl who adults tell to look cute or whatever. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, I don’t smile on command, but only when it comes naturally and find it weird that you are asking for it.  Especially when there is a good chance I am older than you and not some little girl who adults tell to look cute or whatever. 

I was curious what the response would be.  

You do not disappoint.  👏🏻

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

So women just need to cover up with sweaters and jackets when the men are in the vicinity? 

 

Hmm.  Sounds pretty icky to me.  Says very little of the men, and is pretty degrading to the women. Imo. 

Yep... Mission president telling the sister missionaries that their mere presence is the equivalent to pornography for the elders.  Sounds like a crippling message to me.

In one area of my mission, my companion and I shared an area (a small branch) with a companionship of sister missionaries.  We worked very closely with them, meeting often and making joint decisions regarding which companionship was best suited to work with which investigators and members.  Sometimes we taught together.  The four of us made a halfway decent quartet and we sang at firesides and such.  Those months were some of the best of my mission because together we were stronger and better missionaries.

I held those sisters in great respect (still do).  They were and are amazing (although I've lost contact with one).  I never thought of objectifying them nor did lustful thoughts enter my mind when we were together.  As cliche as it may sound, they were like sisters to me.

It's sad to me that the elders in the mission (where the OP took place) may not ever get such an opportunity to grow in (non-romantic) love and respect for those sisters.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Maidservant said:

The circumcision of the heart, perhaps? Lovely. Agreed.

That’s an interesting way to look at it, but not exactly, no.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Same thing with “hugging” the opposite sex. There is not rule, at all, about it. However, there is a pervasive thing among members and missioanries that is forbidden and a rule because it’s considered flirting. What silly things we make our missionaries do.

A-frame and side hugs only, Elder.

Some folks are uncomfortable with hugs. I’m not a fan unless it’s with family or close friends. Captain Billy died because he put his arm around a jealous man’s wife on a tv show. Captain Billy was a fixture in Albuquerque. 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/64055675/ernest-robert-scherer

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not exactly, no.

I got the impression you were talking about the cutting off of any part that offends (Matt 5:30), but if so didn’t understand why it was a solution for men and not for everyone, so I assumed I misunderstood.

[Bernard Gui]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

I got the impression you were talking about the cutting off of any part that offends (Matt 5:30), but if so didn’t understand why it was a solution for men and not for everyone, so I assumed I misunderstood.

If your eye offends you.....

Quote

Matt 5:27 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you! It is more profitable to you that one of your body parts be destroyed than for your whole body to be thrown into hell...

Matt 18:6“ Whoever puts a stumbling block in front of one of these little ones who believe in me, it is better that that person has a millstone hung around his neck so that he may be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks, for it is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to that person by whom the stumbling blocks come. 8If your hand or your foot is a stumbling block to you, cut it off and throw it from you. It is better to enter life maimed or lame than having two hands or two feet and to be thrown into everlasting fire. 9And if your eye is a stumbling block to you, cut it out and discard it. It is better to enter life having one eye than having two eyes and to be cast into the fire of hell.

He appears to be talking to men (his disciples) in both instances. I suppose that it could also be applied to women. It is a “hard saying.”

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I suppose that it could also be applied to women. 

Well, since we all know women are incapable of lust, no need to.  

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I was curious what the response would be.  

You do not disappoint.  👏🏻

You might have enjoyed the unedited version more.

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Well, since we all know women are incapable of lust, no need to.  

Just quoting the Master’s words on this issue....🤔

Edited October 22, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SettingDogStar]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A-frame and side hugs only, Elder.

Some folks are uncomfortable with hugs. I’m not a fan unless it’s with family or close friends. Captain Billy died because he put his arm around a jealous man’s wife on a tv show. Captain Billy was a fixture in Albuquerque. 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/64055675/ernest-robert-scherer

Sure, but when I hug my concert after her amazing baptism and spiritual experience and then i get in trouble there is something very wrong with what we are instilling in our elders and sisters. Hugs are not “inappropriate” unless someone makes it clear they do not want one.

[Amulek]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Wouldn’t the same problem exist for stores that had street entrances though?

Possibly, though I think you're more likely to run into people walking between stores at the mall than you are to run into them in a specific store.

The more I think about it though, the more I tend to suspect that they just don't want missionaries wandering around / hanging out at the mall because it is a wasteful way to spend time. Instead, they want them to only go to specific stores for a specific reason. Not to stereotype, but that does seem like a very 'guy' way of thinking. 

Also, if sister missionaries wearing approved attire are seen as being problematic for elders, I can only imagine what such a person must think of what passes for fashion among mall attendees these days. 

 

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

You might have enjoyed the unedited version more.

Pretty sure Ahab was baiting you with the smile comment. Don't let him get to you.

 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, rockpond said:

Sounds like a crippling message to me.

It seems to me if there had been problems between the elders and sisters in the mission before and this is a reaction to that, there are other better ways of dealing with it.  This appears to be a nobrainer, don't want to be hassled with dealing with individuals, no effort to teach correct principles and intelligent relationships on the part of whoever came up with the idea, imo.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Pretty sure Ahab was baiting you with the smile comment. Don't let him get to you.

 

I think it better to call out inappropriate behaviour than to ignore it as they may assume it was okay and do it to someone else.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Not to stereotype, but that does seem like a very 'guy' way of thinking. 

It's practical, but it would make more sense imo to explain rather than just give the command.  That way it might teach a long lasting worthwhile habit rather than have someone thinking it is just an odd rule for that time or place.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

The more I think about this the more aggravated I am about the message this sweater rule sends to the male and the female missionaries. 

I suppose I better stop thinking about it since there’s nothing I can do about it.

Edited October 22, 2019 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

The more I think about this the more aggravated I am about the message this sweater rule sends to the male and the female missionaries. 

I suppose I better stop thinking about it since there’s nothing I can do about it.

I'm with you.  This is beyond frustrating!