42% of gay youth in conversion therapy attempt suicide

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Define moxy please (preferably with description of behaviours you are thinking of) so I can understand what you missing.

https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=moxy

n. When someone has guts or balls, they have moxy.

 

Back when I was younger we called it "true grit"

 

Being a gritty person means that the one tends to stick to their goals despite numerous issues, problems, setbacks and failures. The person has firmness of mind and unyielding courage. The synonyms of true grit are: fortitude. determination.

 

The person who said we don't have it is just acting like a troll to try to spark a reaction.

[Calm]

Info on method:

Quote

A quantitative cross-sectional design was used to collect data using an online survey platform between February 2, 2018 and September 30, 2018.

A sample of individuals ages 13–24 who resided in the United States were recruited via targeted ads on social
media. No recruitment was conducted via The Trevor Project website or TrevorSpace. Respondents were defined as being LGBTQ if they identified with a sexual orientation other than straight/ heterosexual, a gender identity other than cisgender, or both. In order to ensure representativeness of the sample, targeted recruitment was conducted to ensure adequate sample sizes with respect to geography, gender identity, and race/ethnicity. Qualified respondents completed a secure online questionnaire that included a maximum of 110 questions.

Questions on sexual orientation and gender identity (SOGI) were aligned with the best practices identified in SOGI measurement. Questions on depressed mood and suicidality in the past twelve months were taken from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention’s Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey to allow for direct comparisons to their nationally representative sample.

Each question related to mental health and suicidality was preceded by a message stating:

“If at any time you need to talk to someone about your mental health or thoughts of suicide, please call The Trevor Project at 1-866-488-7386.”

Participation was voluntary, informed consent was obtained, and no names or personal details were included ensuring confidentiality.

A total of 34,808 youth consented to complete the online survey. Youth who indicated that they lived outside of the U.S. (n=475) received a message that they were ineligible to participate in the survey. Youth who indicated that they were both cisgender and straight (n=294) were excluded from the sample. A filter was applied to indicate youth who either a) completed less than half of the survey items or b) reached the end of the survey within three minutes (n=8,091).

Additionally, a mischievous responders analysis identified and removed 52 youth who either provided highly unlikely answers (e.g., selecting all possible religious affi liations and race/ethnicity categories) and/or who provided obvious hate speech about LGBTQ populations in any of the free response options.

The final analytic sample was comprised of 25,896 LGBTQ youth in the United States.

Preliminary analyses were conducted to identify any potential problems with redundancy (e.g., multicollinearity) among similar variables such as experiences of discrimination and victimization. All variables contributed uniquely to indicators related to suicidality.

This report uses “transgender and non-binary” as an umbrella term to encompass non-cisgender youth, which includes young people who identify as transgender or non-binary as well as gender expansive, differently gendered, gender creative, gender variant, genderqueer, agender, gender fluid, gender neutral, bigender, androgynous, or gender diverse. 

 

Quote

COMPARABILITY

In order to better understand how our sample compares to a national probabilistic sample, we included questions regarding suicidality that were identical to those used by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in their Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey (YRBS).

Analyses were conducted to compare rates of seriously considering suicide and attempting suicide in the past 12 months among youth ages 13–18 in our sample to the 2017 YRBS sample of lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) youth.

YRBS prevalence rates among LGB youth for seriously considering suicide (48%) were comparable to rates among the same age range in our sample (45%).

Similarly 23% of LGB youth in the 2017 YRBS reported a suicide attempt in the past 12 months compared to 24% in our sample. 

Demographics are on page 10 in graphs.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=moxy

n. When someone has guts or balls, they have moxy..

I want their perception so I can understand their complaint.  What others define it as doesn't help.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I want their perception so I can understand their complaint.  What others define it as doesn't help.

That's an interesting perspective and I think of language in pretty much the same way.  Although sometimes I believe it can help at least a little bit.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, lostindc said:

Compare the board now to the archived posts from a decade ago.  Compare the approach of apologetics now to then...  Compare the stats of those quitting now to then...

I see no moxy anymore.

The board prohibits proselyting or I would be tesifying all over the place.

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I believe the graph shows the  study compared the rate of those who didn't have the two experiences measured with those that did, 8% vs 23% for those who said they experienced attempts to change orientation or identity and 17% to 42% for conversion therapy.

I need to read the study itself though to figure out why the significant different in the did not experience category (8 vs 14).

The footnote explaining what they asked two separate questions (as some who underwent what the researchers considered conversion therapy might not call it that) does make me concerned that the teens they questioned might not have understood what actual conversion therapy is, possibly being too broad or too narrow.  It would have been better imo if they had specified types of treatment in detail rather than just a label.  Perhaps they did this as well.

This is not to suggest the study is invalid or the stats would be less, just that it could be more accurate and helpful imo.  I am not the least bit surprised that rates were higher given the descriptions I have heard of some conversion therapy treatments and the usually unrealistic goal of complete removal of same sex feelings, etc. replaced with opposite sex feelings, etc.

No doubt that being gay AND going through conversion therapy ought to be a pretty traumatic experience.  If I had a gay child I would object like crazy.  Lots of gay people in the world, I learned when I was a bishop.  They don't deserve any extra stress.

[kllindley]

27 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

No doubt that being gay AND going through conversion therapy ought to be a pretty traumatic experience.  If I had a gay child I would object like crazy.  Lots of gay people in the world, I learned when I was a bishop.  They don't deserve any extra stress.

How do you define "conversion therapy?"

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, lostindc said:

Compare the board now to the archived posts from a decade ago.  Compare the approach of apologetics now to then...  Compare the stats of those quitting now to then...

I see no moxy anymore.

You can see by my stats that I've been on this board for awhile, and I think that any changes have been for the better.  For one thing, we don't have as many rude and crazy people.  So you may have this board confused with some of the impolite and incivil blogs.  To my mind, that is all to the good.  I hope that you agree that we need ad hominems like we need a hole in the head.  The very few who leave the LDS Church for "greener pastures" are welcome to leave, and I wish them well.  I like our pluralistic and variegated society.  That is a strength, not a weakness.

[Jake Starkey]

Let's put a face on this topic.

[Calm]

And the Church is right with him being against such therapies as he describes....

ripping quote off from other thread:

Quote

"Family Services has a longstanding and express policy against using therapies that seek to "repair," "convert," or "change" sexual orientation, such as from homosexual to heterosexual. Research demonstrates that electric shock, aversion, and other analogous therapies are both ineffective and harmful to youth who experience same-sex attraction. Those, including youth, who seek therapies that constitute sexual orientation change efforts will not receive them from FS counselors. Instead, FS counselors assist youth clients in understanding sexual orientation issues in the context of their families and social networks, their expressed religious identity, and their self-determined personal goals, including those pe1iaining to their faith. Gender identity. While many issues of gender identity are not well understood, FS counselors do not provide therapies designed to change a client' s established gender identity. FS counselors assist youth clients in understanding gender identity issues, including gender dysphoria, in the context of their families and social networks, their expressed religious identity, and their self-determined personal goals, including those pertaining to their faith. FS counselors assist young children in healthy identity exploration and development. They also help parents of young children in understanding gender identity and gender dysphoria issues experienced by their children so they can appropriately assist their children in their identity exploration and development. Family Services supports the ability of other responsible practitioners to provide ethical treatments... "

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Calm

[kllindley]

46 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Let's put a face on this topic.

Does he identify the therapist in Utah that did this? Because those actions are already illegal and against professional ethical guidelines. 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

The study shows that those who experienced physical harm and discrimination were more likely to attempt suicide.  This may have contributed to higher numbers for conversion therapy.  It would have been useful imo to measure those who experienced physical harm or discrimination with those who experienced conversion therapy (though it didn't measure timing so we couldn't know if prior to the therapy or not) to see if at higher risk going in.

(Not that this excuses---for those who read any criticism of the report as support for conversion therapy---conversion therapy from being pseudoscience or somehow makes it acceptable, just think it would be useful knowledge to better pinpoint issues; in fact, it would strengthen a report imo by allowing for less wiggle room)

Conversion therapy does not always mean physical harm unless it is combined with "aversion treatments."

Quote

So-called gay conversion therapy, which is sometimes referred to as “ex-gay therapy” or “reparative therapy,” is a pseudoscientific practice that seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity. Talk therapy is currently the most commonly used technique, but some practitioners have also combined this with "aversion treatments," such as induced vomiting or electric shocks, according to a 2018 report by UCLA’s Williams Institute

 

[Calm]

I know.  I am referring to those who might have experienced physical harm and/or discrimination prior to conversion therapy and part of the reason they went to conversion therapy were because of those.  If their parents were concerned about suicidal ideation or were the physically abusive type, they might have pushed the youth towards conversion therapy in hopes of lowering suicide risk in the first case or pressured the kid into taking the therapy.  In both cases there would be a higher risk than with the general LGBT population.

Statistically speaking, if one wants to make claims about conversion therapy causing suicides, then it is important to isolate as much as possible that from other possibly contributing to suicide risk factors.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Calm

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Poppycock.  My chiropractor made me feel like a rockstar! 

Also bog witcher does have its uses.

[Tacenda]

1970s[edit]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I know.  I am referring to those who might have experienced physical harm and/or discrimination prior to conversion therapy and part of the reason they went to conversion therapy were because of those.  If their parents were concerned about suicidal ideation or were the physically abusive type, they might have pushed the youth towards conversion therapy in hopes of lowering suicide risk in the first case or pressured the kid into taking the therapy.  In both cases there would be a higher risk than with the general LGBT population.

Statistically speaking, if one wants to make claims about conversion therapy causing suicides, then it is important to isolate as much as possible that from other possibly contributing to suicide risk factors.

Maybe something like the below in bold perhaps?

• 1971 – Jim Dabakis enrolled at BYU after serving an LDS mission, but left and came out at as gay at the age of 23.^[134] He was elected to the Utah State Senate in 2012.^[135][136]
• 1971 – Kenneth Mark Storer was a gay Mormon BYU graduate student.^[137] He would later become a pastor in the gay-friendly Metropolitan Community Church in Salt Lake, Boise,^[138] and Tacoma, and a leader in an AIDS-victim advocacy group in the 80s.^[139]
• 1973 – It was decided by the BYU Board of Trustees that the ban on people attracted to those of the same sex would be lifted and they could enroll at BYU with local church leadership permission as long as they were not sexually expressing their attractions.^[30][44]:155
• 1973 – BYU psychology professor Allen Bergin published an article in the July Ensign portraying some homosexuals as "psychologically disturbed persons" who are "compulsively driven to frequent and sometimes bizarre acts." He cited two clients with "compulsive or uncontrollable homosexuality" caused by intense fear for the opposite sex, a lack of social skills for normal male-female relationships, and seeking security exclusively from the same sex. Bergin discussed the behaviorist sexual orientation change efforts he used in an attempt to change their same-sex sexual behavior and attractions.^[140]

 

BYU president Oaksinstituted a system of surveillance to identify and expel or attempt to "cure" homosexual students in the '70s.

• 1974 – BYU president Oaks delivered a speech on campus in which he spoke in favor of keeping criminal punishment for "deviate sexual behavior" such as private, consensual, same-sex sexual activity. The speech was later printed by the university's press.^{[141][142][143]}
• 1974 – Church president Kimball addressed the BYU student body stating that sex reassignment surgeries were an appalling travesty.^[144]
• 1975 – As part of the ongoing BYU security homosexual entrapment campaigns, BYU security claimed that an agency director for the US Department of Social Services man was caught soliciting sex by tapping his feet in a bathroom stall next to an undercover officer while visiting the campus, but the man denied the charges and called the security sting harassment. BYU banned the man from campus after he refused to meet with campus officials.^[145]
• 1976 – The church-operated university BYU began a purge in January to expel homosexual students^[36]:126 as part of president Oaks' widespread campaign to curtail the influence of homosexual people on campus.^[146] The purge including interrogations of fine arts and drama students and surveillance of Salt Lake City gay bars by BYU security. These activities were noted in the Salt Lake Tribune^[35] and the gay newspaper Advocate.^[2]:442
• 1976 – BYU music professor Carlyle Marsden completed suicide^[147] two days after being outed by an arrest for alleged homosexual activity.^{[148][149][150]}
• 1976 – A 20-year study by a BYU Sociology professor is published showing that 10% of BYU men and 2% of BYU women indicated having had a "homosexual experience."^{[2]:442–443} In 1950, 1961, and 1972 Wilford E. Smith conducted a survey of thousands of Mormon students at several universities including many from the BYU sociology department as part of a larger survey.^[80] He found that "the response of Mormons [at BYU] did not differ significantly from the response of Mormons in state universities."^[1]
• 1977 – After hearing anti-gay rhetoric from BYU professor Reed Payne, BYU student Cloy Jenkins and gay BYU instructor Lee Williams produced the Payne Papers (later called Prologue) outlining information and experiences in defense of homosexual Mormons. It was later anonymously mailed to all high-ranking church leaders.^{[44]:157–159}
• 1977 Stephan Zakharias (formerly Stephen James Matthew Prince) and a group of other lesbian and gay Mormons and former-Mormons organized the first official LGBTQ Mormon group under the name Affirmation: Gay Mormons United on June 11^[151] in Salt Lake City at the conference for the Salt Lake Coalition for Human Rights.^{[152][153][154]}

 

Pamphlet cover to a reprint of Packer's BYU speech on homosexuality.

• 1978 – The apostle Boyd Packer delivered a sermon at BYU on March 5 entitled "To the One", which went on to be published by the church as a pamphlet.^[155] Packer characterizes homosexual interaction as a perversion and presents the possibility that it had its roots in selfishness and could be cured with "unselfish thoughts, with unselfish acts."^[156]:6 He states that the church had not previously talked more about homosexuality because "some matters are best handled very privately"^[156]:3 and "we can very foolishly cause things we are trying to prevent by talking too much about them."^[156]:19

 

Three text advertisements placed by BYU security in a gay Salt Lake City monthly newspaper in order to entrap gay students.

• 1978 – In November BYU Security began placing entrapment ads in a monthly Salt Lake City LGBT newspaper to ensnare BYU students.^[38] This resulted in the 1979 arrest of David Chipman, a former BYU student, who made a romantic advance after being taken on a drive by undercover BYU security agent David Neumann posing as a gay BYU student.^{[157][40][158]}Chipman's controversial conviction due to the security officers making an arrest outside their jurisdiction for an entrapment case went to the Utah State Supreme Court.^{[36]:126[159]}
• 1979 – Under the guidance of BYU president Dallin Oaks, BYU security began campaigns to entrap any students participating in same-sex sexual behavior and purge them from the university.^[36]:126
• 1979 – BYU's newspaper published a series of articles in April quoting BYU and church leaders^[160] and gay students on homosexuality. The series included comments by Maxine Murdock of the BYU Counseling Center and Ford McBride, a former psychology student who conducted BYU electroshock aversion experiments on fourteen gay BYU students.^[161] McBride and Murdock estimated that 4% of BYU students (or around 1,200 students) are homosexual.^[162][82] Additionally, commissioner of LDS Social Services Harold Brown stated that homosexuality is not biological or inborn,^[163] and that church leaders just want to help them overcome their problem,^[164] and Victor Brown Jr. compared it to an alcoholic's addiction that can be cured.^[163]

 

A BYU sign at the 1979 Los Angeles Pride parade.

• 1979 – A BYU alumni sign among others was held aloft by the Affirmation group at the Los Angeles Pride Parade in what was called the first out gay Mormon presence at a pride parade.^{[165]:48[166]} One of the participants was interviewed on camera wearing a BYU jerse

[phaedrus ut]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Phaedrus or someone else, could you put up the image for the second page like you did the first, I can't get it to work.

Bob, until that happens, you can go to page 2 in the report for the general stats

I can get this much:

 

Did you mean the attached infographic image? 

[Calm]

The comment by McBride in 1979 and Berlin in 1973 are the only relevant ones to my comments and questions about aversion or conversion therapies being conducted at the Y or approved by the Church imo.  McKonkie's speculation on what caused homosexuality and what might cure it (encouraging unselfish thoughts and unselfish acts) doesn't qualify as either aversion therapy at all or conversion therapy as I understand it even though his talk expresses the belief it could be cured.

Tac, I am not seeing how the bolder part applies in your view to my post you are responding to, btw.

Here is the footnote's quote of Pres. Oaks' talk, btw...assuming it is accurate:

"I believe in retaining criminal penalties on sex crimes such as adultery, fornication, prostitution, homosexuality, and other forms of deviate sexual behavior. I concede the abuses and risks of invasion of privacy that are involved in the enforcement of such crimes and therefore concede the need for extraordinary supervision of the enforcement process. I am even willing to accept a strategy of extremely restrained enforcement of private, noncommercial sexual offenses. I favor retaining these criminal penalties primarily because of the standard-setting and teaching function of these laws on sexual morality and their support of society's exceptional interest in the integrity of the family."

Edited October 18, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

Did you mean the attached infographic image? 

No, the green one that gives rates without regard to conversion therapy.  It is a more thorough analysis of that than the blue, which is additional useful info to provide context, imo.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

The comment by McBride in 1979 and Berlin in 1973 are the only relevant ones to my comments and questions about aversion or conversion therapies being conducted at the Y or approved by the Church imo.  McKonkie's speculation on what caused homosexuality and what might cure it (encouraging unselfish thoughts and unselfish acts) doesn't qualify as either aversion therapy at all or conversion therapy as I understand it even though his talk expresses the belief it could be cured.

Tac, I am not seeing how the bolder part applies in your view to my post you are responding to, btw.

Here is the footnote's quote of Pres. Oaks' talk, btw...assuming it is accurate:

"I believe in retaining criminal penalties on sex crimes such as adultery, fornication, prostitution, homosexuality, and other forms of deviate sexual behavior. I concede the abuses and risks of invasion of privacy that are involved in the enforcement of such crimes and therefore concede the need for extraordinary supervision of the enforcement process. I am even willing to accept a strategy of extremely restrained enforcement of private, noncommercial sexual offenses. I favor retaining these criminal penalties primarily because of the standard-setting and teaching function of these laws on sexual morality and their support of society's exceptional interest in the integrity of the family."

I didn't see the footnote. I didn't realize he was including adultery & fornication as well... wow! To your question in bold, I think like you said, many things could lead to suicide, not just aversion/conversion therapies. Many of Oaks talks and the talk about the homosexuals being criminals for acting on it, could contribute.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

Wow, quite impressed that the Deseret News put this out. Of course the assistant president of the Tabernacle Choir Ron Gunnell, was attending with her at Encircle in SLC. Maybe to take the edge off of the last conference talk given by Oaks. https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/17/20919916/broadway-kristin-chenoweth-wicked-frozen-encircle-lgbtq-album?fbclid=IwAR0XBBApU8CeC1Qjolo6yCxWRyY0o6mprITvUB76pIWn9VGeeT5CQ8mYYJY

[Anonymous Mormon]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

To your question in bold, I think like you said, many things could lead to suicide, not just aversion/conversion therapies. Many of Oaks talks and the talk about the homosexuals being criminals for acting on it, could contribute.

Can you please share the full specific quotes from Elder Oaks' talks that are contributing to homosexuals committing suicide? I think that statement is a real stretch.

Also, as a second question, if any leader in the church says, "Marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Anyone who commits sexual activity with a member of the same sex is committing a sin and needs to repent," would you consider this statement as a contribution to someone else committing suicide?

 

[Anonymous Mormon]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, quite impressed that the Deseret News put this out. Of course the assistant president of the Tabernacle Choir Ron Gunnell, was attending with her at Encircle in SLC. Maybe to take the edge off of the last conference talk given by Oaks. https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/17/20919916/broadway-kristin-chenoweth-wicked-frozen-encircle-lgbtq-album?fbclid=IwAR0XBBApU8CeC1Qjolo6yCxWRyY0o6mprITvUB76pIWn9VGeeT5CQ8mYYJY

I just can't figure out what your point in the above comment was in relation to Elder Oaks. Do you honestly believe that someone at Deseret News thought, "I need to take the edge off of Elder Oaks last conference talk so now 15 days later I am going to do a new article about Kristin Chenoweth? Are you making a joke? What does that have to do with Elder Oaks' talk (which I thought was really well done by the way).

[Jake Starkey]

On 10/18/2019 at 4:52 PM, Anonymous Mormon said:

I just can't figure out what your point in the above comment was in relation to Elder Oaks. Do you honestly believe that someone at Deseret News thought, "I need to take the edge off of Elder Oaks last conference talk so now 15 days later I am going to do a new article about Kristin Chenoweth? Are you making a joke? What does that have to do with Elder Oaks' talk (which I thought was really well done by the way).

Yes, I think that is exactly what happened. Oaks needs the edges rubbed down some, yes.

[Robert F. Smith]

Just yesterday, speaking at BYU, David Brooks (a Jewish columnist for the New York Times) explored increasing suicide rates in America, and offered some solutions:

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/10/22/20923897/david-brooks-byu-new-york-times-conservative-core-problem-democratic-character?utm_source=Morning+Edition  .

[SteveO]

39 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Just yesterday, speaking at BYU, David Brooks (a Jewish columnist for the New York Times) explored increasing suicide rates in America, and offered some solutions:

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/10/22/20923897/david-brooks-byu-new-york-times-conservative-core-problem-democratic-character?utm_source=Morning+Edition  .

He says:

”The other lies of the meritocracy are self-sufficiently, that you can make yourself happy” 

The church has taught, and continues to teach self reliance...and if it’s a lie that we can make ourselves happy...uh, who’s job is it?