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On 10/14/2019 at 5:28 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

That works. Also this one:

 

And the Tabernacle did not get struck by lightning? ;). Choreography?

No broken hips from actually moving?

Oh gosh we are just so HIP in our tuxedos!  ;);)

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Actually, mister stickler for details, the Gospel Library app is now called just the Library app.  But I take your point that LDS Tools has now been renamed to only Tools now.  I'll get accustomed to the change in short time.

Okay, yeah, I can see how that might be more helpful.  I'll download it soon and try it.  I knew about it earlier but just stuck with what I already was using.

Yeah I can see how it would be if you didn't already know it.  For some reason I retain the melody and bass line in my memory but just can't remember all of the words.  Maybe because the words change on every line.

Actually, you’re wrong. It is still offered on the App Store as “Gospel Library.” And there has been no announcement I’m aware of that this has changed. 
 

But it turns out I remembered the new name of the music app wrong. It is “Sacred Music,” not “Gospel Music.”  That should have been the one you caught me on. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Actually, you’re wrong. It is still offered on the App Store as “Gospel Library.” And there has been no announcement I’m aware of that this has changed. 
 

But it turns out I remembered the new name of the music app wrong. It is “Sacred Music,” not “Gospel Music.”  That should have been the one you caught me on. 

Interesting. My icon on my phone just says "Library" and I didn't change it.  I'm pretty sure the icon said Gospel Library before.  I do see that it is called Gospel Library on the Play Store though. Very interesting.

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4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is a bigger problem than most people think when it comes to choosing which hymns will be included. For example, I really dislike the Salvation Army Band revival style hymns with the dotted eighth-sixteenth note rhythms (tah-tee tah-tee tah-tee tah-tee). "We Are All Enlisted," "In our Lovely Deseret," "Called to Serve," "Let Us All Press On," etc. Not necessarily because of the sentiments and the texts, but more because of the trite, dated, stereotyped, pedestrian music itself (IMO). But others would disagree vehemently because those types of hymn fire them up and get their toes tapping. Someone along the line is going to say, "But that's my grandmother's favorite hymn. We can't eliminate that one." IMO, a great hymn is a blessed wedding between excellent text and excellent music. Our best hymns are found in the sacrament section.

Ditto with "If You Could Hie to Kolob." It was rarely sung, if ever, until it was set to Ralph Vaughan-Williams' (an agnostic) masterful tune. Now it's one of the favorites. 

With the new hymnal I think there has to be a procedure in place to learn the new music. In the olden days, Sunday School had a regular feature....the Practice Hymn.....to help members learn new hymns. That was discontinued in the three hour block, so many hymns that were introduced in the 1985 remain unknown and unsung. 

Our hymnody essentially comes from19th-century American Protestant sources and practices. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

Partially correct. A portion of it is derived from 19th.century British influences. It thus is an amalgamation consistent with the demographic makeup of the 19th century converts to the Church. 
 

We could perhaps examine some more modern influences by considering some of the hymns that were newly composed for our current (1985) hymnal. Off hand, I can think of “Where Can I Turn for Peace?” “In Fasting We Approach Thee,”  “From Homes of Saints Glad Songs Arise,” and “I Believe in Christ.”

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

The only good thing about so many hymns written in such a key that only 6 year old girls can likely reach the melody lines for is that I learned parts at a young age. 

The only part I ever sing is bass. Of course, an octave above the piano bass line but still, bass. 

Some of those hymn melody lines are Mariah high.  

Good to know it just isn't me.  :)  Haven't been able to do choir since high school to hear others' experiences.  Allergies...

Edited by Calm
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30 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Interesting. My icon on my phone just says "Library" and I didn't change it.  I'm pretty sure the icon said Gospel Library before.  I do see that it is called Gospel Library on the Play Store though. Very interesting.

You can’t go by labels on icons. likely as not, they are truncated to conserve space. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And the Tabernacle did not get struck by lightning? ;). Choreography?

No broken hips from actually moving?

Oh gosh we are just so HIP in our tuxedos!  ;);)

Seems like every choir in the world is doing that one. It looks so odd in formal European concert dress. Except this group.....

 

It would be awesome to see a gospel choir do an imitation of the Tabernacle Choir. 
 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Partially correct. A portion of it is derived from 19th.century British influences. It thus is an amalgamation consistent with the demographic makeup of the 19th century converts to the Church. 

Yeah. Lots of Isaac Watts and Charles Wesley.

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We could perhaps examine some more modern influences by considering some of the hymns that were newly composed for our current (1985) hymnal. Off hand, I can think of “Where Can I Turn for Peace?” “In Fasting We Approach Thee,”  “From Homes of Saints Glad Songs Arise,” and “I Believe in Christ.”

And we need more from my friend Crawford Gates.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yeah. Lots of Isaac Watts and Charles Wesley.

And we need more from my friend Crawford Gates.

I was fortunate to interview him some years before his death. He had recently moved back to Salt Lake City after many years. I got some of his reminiscences about composing the score for “Promised Valley,” the musical commissioned in 1947 for the centennial of the settlement of Utah. 
 

In my lead, I wrote that the man who wrote “I dream of a home in the valley” was again making his home in that valley. 

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On 10/17/2019 at 11:18 AM, caspianrex said:

I am Director of Music Ministries in a United Methodist church. For quite some time now, our denomination has reportedly been working on a new hymnal project. Since our current hymnal came out in 1989, we've also seen two hymnal supplements, one of which is not great, and the other of which is pretty awful. The scant information I've seen about the new United Methodist Hymnal indicates that they may be focusing mostly on digital resources, while also allowing for some sort of "print on demand" model. In general, I believe many denominations are finding that print hymnals are an expensive proposition, and sales figures are not encouraging. As a person who is not a Latter-day Saint, I'm not sure what the current practice is in your churches, but even at my church, which is fairly traditional in terms of worship style, we have very few people who actually sing from the hymnal: most follow the words on the song screens, a practice that hurts my church musician heart! I will be interested to see how upcoming hymnal projects do, both in my own denomination and in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Currently the Church replaces hymnals in ward buildings every so often. Many buildings have more than one ward using the same hymnals, so they can get worn out after a decade or so. I am looking forward to the new hymnal  There are a lot of songs in our current hymnal which are just rarely used, and a lot of good protestant hymns we could adopt for our use. As Scott pointed out we also have an app called Gospel Library which has the hymns in digital format. This app is available through the regular channels such as Google Play. You can download it for free on your smartphone to check it out. There are also a few other LDS music apps available for free through Google Play. Personally, I prefer using a printed hymnal in Sacrament service, but in other meetings in which hymnals have to be passed out - left on chairs, etc, it is convenient to use the app on your smartphone instead.
I do my best to introduce a little variety into the hymns by singing the tenor and bass parts.. and sometimes ad libbing a little. :) Recently, a young tenor has taken up residence behind me, and I enjoy our harmony together...

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On 10/16/2019 at 7:12 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

There was a Churchwide invitation to submit original work — words and/or music — for consideration. But that was some time ago, and I’m afraid the time might have passed by now. Others may correct me if I’m wrong. 

It may still be in force.  My sister-in-law and a friend recently submitted a hymn they had written.

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Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 10/18/2019 at 5:04 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Not the PDFs with the musical score on the Gospel Music app, you can’t. 

Are you on the iPhone or Android?  On my Android phone, the app icon is labeled "Music", and the title on the start page is "Sacred Music".  Tap on "Hymns" and select one of the hymns.  By default, this will display the musical score and the words just as in the hymnbook. These don't appear to be PDFs, but even if they are, you can expand their size quickly by putting two fingers on the screen, then pull the fingertips apart. Automatically the view will expand. In the "View Options" (tap the three dots in the upper right) you can select either "Words Only" or "Sheet Music".

On 10/18/2019 at 5:26 PM, Ahab said:

In LDS Tools go to Library then Music then click on the Hymns icon then select a hymn and then click on those 3 dots stacked up at the top right of the screen and then click on Settings and then click on Text Size to select the size you want.

On my Android phone, those three dots don't lead to a "Text Size" option.  

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On 10/14/2019 at 10:57 PM, esodije said:

The cynic in me wonders how many new hymns with lyrics written by current apostles will appear in the new hymnal.  Theoretically, the royalties from having a hymn published could be massive.

Yeah, I'd say that was pretty cynical.  Unreasonably cynical, in fact, with little or no basis.

How many such are in the current hymnal?  To the best of my knowledge there are None.  How about recent past apostles?  Only Bruce R. McConkie, to the best of my knowledge, and his hymn "I Believe In Christ" is copyrighted by the Church, not him.  So, no royalties.  

How many of the current apostles are poets?  Even amateur poets?  Because poetry is kind of required to write the kind of music lyrics that are used in hymns.

There are a few hymns in the current hymnal which are copyrighted by other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Most, if not all of them are copyrighted by non-members.

 

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On 10/17/2019 at 11:18 AM, caspianrex said:

I am Director of Music Ministries in a United Methodist church. For quite some time now, our denomination has reportedly been working on a new hymnal project. Since our current hymnal came out in 1989, we've also seen two hymnal supplements, one of which is not great, and the other of which is pretty awful. The scant information I've seen about the new United Methodist Hymnal indicates that they may be focusing mostly on digital resources, while also allowing for some sort of "print on demand" model. In general, I believe many denominations are finding that print hymnals are an expensive proposition, and sales figures are not encouraging. As a person who is not a Latter-day Saint, I'm not sure what the current practice is in your churches, but even at my church, which is fairly traditional in terms of worship style, we have very few people who actually sing from the hymnal: most follow the words on the song screens, a practice that hurts my church musician heart! I will be interested to see how upcoming hymnal projects do, both in my own denomination and in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

What does the music ministry look like in your congregation? What is objectionable about the hymns in the supplements?

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13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Currently the Church replaces hymnals in ward buildings every so often. Many buildings have more than one ward using the same hymnals, so they can get worn out after a decade or so. I am looking forward to the new hymnal  There are a lot of songs in our current hymnal which are just rarely used, and a lot of good protestant hymns we could adopt for our use. .

😢

17,000 submissions plus keeping some of our best and we want to borrow from our Protestant friends?

We have the talent and the means to have our own unique hymnody. Maybe they can borrow some from us for a change.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

😢

17,000 submissions plus keeping some of our best and we want to borrow from our Protestant friends?

We have the talent and the means to have our own unique hymnody. May be they can borrow some from us..

Some of them do. “Come, Come, Ye Saints” is fairly well known — if not popular — in other churches. 
 

Of course, the melody is not original with us. William Clayton, who wrote the words while the Pioneers were encamped on the plains of Iowa in 1846 during the trek west to their new home, set his words to a tune that was already popular in churches of the day. That’s why his new hymn could catch on so quickly and become the anthem of the Mormon Pioneer movement for the decades to come. 

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8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Are you on the iPhone or Android?  On my Android phone, the app icon is labeled "Music", and the title on the start page is "Sacred Music".  Tap on "Hymns" and select one of the hymns.  By default, this will display the musical score and the words just as in the hymnbook. These don't appear to be PDFs, but even if they are, you can expand their size quickly by putting two fingers on the screen, then pull the fingertips apart. Automatically the view will expand. In the "View Options" (tap the three dots in the upper right) you can select either "Words Only" or "Sheet Music".

On my Android phone, those three dots don't lead to a "Text Size" option.  

My bad. On the iPhone, you CAN use the two-finger method to expand the size. It’s just that I never do it because it makes it larger than the screen size and you have to keep scrolling around to view it. Very impractical, especially when you’re singing the hymn with a congregation. Best just to turn the device sideways and let it automatically expand. The screen is still wide enough to fit the page, and you only have to scroll up and down once in the course of singing a verse and chorus. 
 

Ahab was referring to the text-only version of the hymns in Gospel Library. He did not realize I had reference to the LDS Music (now renamed Sacred Music) app. 

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9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, I'd say that was pretty cynical.  Unreasonably cynical, in fact, with little or no basis.

How many such are in the current hymnal?  To the best of my knowledge there are None.  How about recent past apostles?  Only Bruce R. McConkie, to the best of my knowledge, and his hymn "I Believe In Christ" is copyrighted by the Church, not him.  So, no royalties.  

How many of the current apostles are poets?  Even amateur poets?  Because poetry is kind of required to write the kind of music lyrics that are used in hymns.

There are a few hymns in the current hymnal which are copyrighted by other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Most, if not all of them are copyrighted by non-members.

 

I agree the royalty concern has no basis in fact and is unreasonably cynical. 
 

But there are some hymns with words written by modern apostles (though all have passed on now).

— Gordon B. Hinckley wrote “My Redeemer Lives” (not to be confused with “I Know That My Redeemer Lives). G. Homer Durham, another General Authority, wrote the music to that one  

— Joseph Fielding Smith wrote “Does the Journey Seem Long?” 

—- James E. Faust wrote the words to “This Is the Christ,” though that is not in the hymnal. It is a popular choir selection, however. 
 

— Marion D. Hanks was not an apostle, but I’ll mention him because he was a well-known General Authority. He wrote “That Easter Morn.”

This list, of course, does not include 19th century Church leaders who wrote hymns, some of which we still use today. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

😢

17,000 submissions plus keeping some of our best and we want to borrow from our Protestant friends?

We have the talent and the means to have our own unique hymnody. Maybe they can borrow some from us for a change.

I am all for good hymns from wherever Bernard. However, if these "17,000" are like the other 50 hymns in our hymnal which don't ever get sung, I'd say let's pass. If there are 17,000  submissions, I say let's try some out. Put them in an app or something, and give them a whirl. I usually know the first time I hear or sing a song whether it is one that has longevity. But 17,000 submissions which have not become popular enough for me to ever hear doesn't really bode well imho. I have listed about 20-30 songs I grew up with which are not in our hymnal, and which I miss. Most we can simply adopt as written, and a few can be easily revised to better fit the restored gospel. I see nothing wrong with borrowing from the best of what the last 200-300 years has given us in hymnody...do you object? We have had our own unique hymnody for about 150 years, but tbh, a good 50 of those songs just kinda drone on, and don't do it for me. I don't think we should eschew some of the best hymns , just because they don't have LDS composers. I think that is partially why we are looking at a new hymnal... Should we eschew members who wish to perform Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Handel because they were not LDS Christians? God forbid Bernard...

Edited by RevTestament
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11 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I am all for good hymns from wherever Bernard. However, if these "17,000" are like the other 50 hymns in our hymnal which don't ever get sung, I'd say let's pass. If there are 17,000  submissions, I say let's try some out. Put them in an app or something, and give them a whirl. I usually know the first time I hear or sing a song whether it is one that has longevity. But 17,000 submissions which have not become popular enough for me to ever hear doesn't really bode well imho. I have listed about 20-30 songs I grew up with which are not in our hymnal, and which I miss. Most we can simply adopt as written, and a few can be easily revised to better fit the restored gospel. I see nothing wrong with borrowing from the best of what the last 200-300 years has given us in hymnody...do you object? We have had our own unique hymnody for about 150 years, but tbh, a good 50 of those songs just kinda drone on, and don't do it for me. I don't think we should eschew some of the best hymns , just because they don't have LDS composers. I think that is partially why we are looking at a new hymnal... Should we eschew members who wish to perform Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Handel because they were not LDS Christians? God forbid Bernard...

Why do those 50 hymns never get sung? Is it because they are not good music, or is it because people are such sticks-in-the-mud that they are unwilling to sing hymns they don’t know and they complain when they are expected to do so? From personal observation, I’d say it’s the latter. 
 

It’s an age-old conundrum: How can we learn new hymns if we never sing them? I’ll pose the same question I did earlier: If we are unwilling to learn unfamiliar hymns now, what makes you think we’ll be willing when a new hymn book is published?

I agree with Bernard that we have the breadth and depth of talent in the Church today to create our own hymnody without the need to borrow from sectarian sources beyond what we have already done. There may be some that have the quality, appropriateness and outstanding popularity (among our people) to justify it, but off hand I can only think of one that meets all of those criteria: “Amazing Grace.”

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why do those 50 hymns never get sung? Is it because they are not good music, or is it because people are such sticks-in-the-mud that they are unwilling to sing hymns they don’t know and they complain when they are expected to do so? From personal observation, I’d say it’s the latter. 
 

It’s an age-old conundrum: How can we learn new hymns if we never sing them? I’ll pose the same question I did earlier: If are unwilling to learn unfamiliar hymns now, what makes you think we’ll be willing when a new hymn book is published?

I agree with Bernard that we have the breadth and depth of talent in the Church today to create our own hymnody without the need to borrow from sectarian sources beyond what we have already done. There may be some that have the quality, appropriateness and outstanding popularity (among our people) to justify it, but off hand I can only think of one that meets all of those criteria: “Amazing Grace.”

It is true that many of the songs in our hymnal were composed when the Church was quite small. That in itself makes their range kinda small. The best composers are God's gift to us, and are rare. The Church is now big enough that I expect some of those 17,000 submissions may prove timeless. Let's put them in an app and give them a whirl. We won't know whether to include them in a hymnal unless we get some exposure to them. We obviously cannot include them all in a printed hymnal. Time has a way of weeding out the less popular music. Let the people speak... or sing as the case may be. But to exclude some previously timeless hymns because they didn't have LDS composers is something the Church has never done, and we shouldn't start now. Many of our best hymns currently in our hymnal had Protestant composers.  Shall we throw out If I could Hie to Kolob because Ralph von Williams was not an LDS composer? Please....

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15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Some of them do. “Come, Come, Ye Saints” is fairly well known — if not popular — in other churches. 
 

Of course, the melody is not original with us. William Clayton, who wrote the words while the Pioneers were encamped on the plains of Iowa in 1846 during the trek west to their new home, set his words to a tune that was already popular in churches of the day. That’s why his new hymn could catch on so quickly and become the anthem of the Mormon Pioneer movement for the decades to come. 

I haven’t heard of that. They probably don’t sing verse 3, no?

I had an Evangelical college teaching friend who was somewhat antagonistic toward the Church. He would play “Come, Come Ye Saints” on the piano when I was in the next room, perhaps to taunt me, but maybe to express some sort of connection. He was a math professor, so who knew what was going through his mind. Perhaps it helped him to gird up his loins when he was wending his way through a difficult equation.

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