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bsjkki

New active shooter guidelines from Presiding Bishopric

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After advertising our chapels are a gun free zone, the Presiding Bishopric released updated safety guidelines including guidance for active shooter situations.  https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2019-10-10/safety-guidelines-lds-meetinghouses-shootings-emergencies-163930

“First, if something seems out of the ordinary, doesn’t fit or doesn’t feel right, tell someone immediately. 

“Second, the number-one thing that can help someone if they find themselves in an active shooter situation is to follow the principles of ‘run, hide, fight.’ This approach is taught by law enforcement and security experts around the world,” he said.

Guidelines emphasize the importance of relying on local law enforcement during emergency situations, being aware of one’s surroundings and following promptings of the Holy Ghost. A section dedicated to responding to an armed intruder or active shooter is also included.”

 

Edited by bsjkki
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41 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

After advertising our chapels are a gun free zone, the Presiding Bishopric released updated safety guidelines including guidance for active shooter shooter situations.  https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2019-10-10/safety-guidelines-lds-meetinghouses-shootings-emergencies-163930

“First, if something seems out of the ordinary, doesn’t fit or doesn’t feel right, tell someone immediately. 

“Second, the number-one thing that can help someone if they find themselves in an active shooter situation is to follow the principles of ‘run, hide, fight.’ This approach is taught by law enforcement and security experts around the world,” he said.

Guidelines emphasize the importance of relying on local law enforcement during emergency situations, being aware of one’s surroundings and following promptings of the Holy Ghost. A section dedicated to responding to an armed intruder or active shooter is also included.”

 

Thankfully, we have three retired police in our Ward. 

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It's funny how none of those "hide" protocols are possible in a LDS church building. No locks on doors, the doors open out into the hall and can't be barricaded, all of the doors have windows in a lot of churches, etc. The best course of action to take in an active shooter situation is to return fire but they decided to take that away and instead come out with guidelines that are not applicable to meetinghouses.

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6 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

It's funny how none of those "hide" protocols are possible in a LDS church building. No locks on doors, the doors open out into the hall and can't be barricaded, all of the doors have windows in a lot of churches, etc. The best course of action to take in an active shooter situation is to return fire but they decided to take that away and instead come out with guidelines that are not applicable to meetinghouses.

maybe the Church figures that based on almost no shootings in a LDS building that it probably won't happen. As I say when a shooting does happen would I trust 72 yr old sharpshooter Gary  with a gun working in the clerks office to get over to the primary room or YM/YW room when a shooting happens? I woudn't bet my life on that plan and the Church apparently doesn't either. In Canada we aren't allowed to have "open carry" thank heavens

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25 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

It's funny how none of those "hide" protocols are possible in a LDS church building. No locks on doors, the doors open out into the hall and can't be barricaded, all of the doors have windows in a lot of churches, etc. The best course of action to take in an active shooter situation is to return fire but they decided to take that away and instead come out with guidelines that are not applicable to meetinghouses.

The instruction is to get to a classroom and barricade the door when our stake did active shooter training. If they break in, attack. A firearm is usually more a liability than a help in close range combat, particularly if the weapon is large.

Returning is not the best course of action unless you have a weapon and are trained very well and preferably have seen combat so you know you will not freeze or panic.

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4 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Thankfully, we have three retired police in our Ward. 

I know a few members in my Stake have been asked to concealed carry if feasible without inconvenience. Most of them are retired law enforcement. We also have designated people carrying that sit in specific seats at stake conference.

My bishop asked me at one point if I was trained or was willing to be trained. I declined.

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14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I know a few members in my Stake have been asked to concealed carry if feasible without inconvenience. Most of them are retired law enforcement. We also have designated people carrying that sit in specific seats at stake conference.

My bishop asked me at one point if I was trained or was willing to be trained. I declined.

I was making note of the fact, that we are trained what to do, as is our families. But, never been asked for a Stake Conference.  But just my between the three of us and my sons, that means there are five or more handguns is as many cars. Does the new policy allow for conceal carry? I hope not, because here in Georgia, too many people have carry permits, who never took the time to know how to use a weapon. 

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

maybe the Church figures that based on almost no shootings in a LDS building that it probably won't happen. As I say when a shooting does happen would I trust 72 yr old sharpshooter Gary  with a gun working in the clerks office to get over to the primary room or YM/YW room when a shooting happens? I woudn't bet my life on that plan and the Church apparently doesn't either. In Canada we aren't allowed to have "open carry" thank heavens

Open carry, for a Police Officer point of view, is much better than concealed. When we see someone open carry, we can usually assume that they are legally carrying and have nothing to hide. Even more so, that they may be a fellow Police Officer, who may be off duty. Although it is not against the law, to openly carry a riffle, if you see someone doing so, take cover all the same. Also you can rest assured that any Police Officer, no matter what will see what planet the idiot carrying is from.  

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4 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Open carry, for a Police Officer point of view, is much better than concealed. When we see someone open carry, we can usually assume that they are legally carrying and have nothing to hide. Even more so, that they may be a fellow Police Officer, who may be off duty. Although it is not against the law, to openly carry a riffle, if you see someone doing so, take cover all the same. Also you can rest assured that any Police Officer, no matter what will see what planet the idiot carrying is from.  

What if the open carry person is the first to be shot?  Before anyone but the perp becomes aware of the unfolding tragedy?

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11 minutes ago, longview said:

What if the open carry person is the first to be shot?  Before anyone but the perp becomes aware of the unfolding tragedy?

Then the concealed carry guys take over. There is a good reason to conceal carry, even if the law permits open carry, because guns laws in each State are voted on by everyone. So, one must always be aware of how the voting public views guns laws. 

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My bishop is very transparently clear on the issue.  "If I see a gun, I'll ask the member to take it home."

He wears his suit jacket even on the warmest days when the AC is broken.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The instruction is to get to a classroom and barricade the door when our stake did active shooter training. If they break in, attack. A firearm is usually more a liability than a help in close range combat, particularly if the weapon is large.

Returning is not the best course of action unless you have a weapon and are trained very well and preferably have seen combat so you know you will not freeze or panic.

How do you barricade a door that opens out from the room like every door in a LDS chapel?

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3 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

It's funny how none of those "hide" protocols are possible in a LDS church building. No locks on doors, the doors open out into the hall and can't be barricaded, all of the doors have windows in a lot of churches, etc. The best course of action to take in an active shooter situation is to return fire but they decided to take that away and instead come out with guidelines that are not applicable to meetinghouses.

True, but most chapels have two main exits, and two secondary exits.  That is better than many buildings.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know a few members in my Stake have been asked to concealed carry if feasible without inconvenience. Most of them are retired law enforcement. We also have designated people carrying that sit in specific seats at stake conference.

My bishop asked me at one point if I was trained or was willing to be trained. I declined.

Was this before the recent change in policy that doesn't allow any guns in the building or premises?

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In a room with 200 +/- people in it you DO NOT want the exits to open inward. The Fire Marshal would close the place down . Classrooms all open inward so could be blocked somewhat. 

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22 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

In a room with 200 +/- people in it you DO NOT want the exits to open inward. The Fire Marshal would close the place down . Classrooms all open inward so could be blocked somewhat. 

My building almost all doors open outward into the hallway.

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1 hour ago, 10THAmendment said:

How do you barricade a door that opens out from the room like every door in a LDS chapel?

Toss a bunch of the open metal folding chairs people were sitting on in front of them.  While someone could shoot through them, it would be difficult to climb over them and would obscure sight.

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5 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I was making note of the fact, that we are trained what to do, as is our families. But, never been asked for a Stake Conference.  But just my between the three of us and my sons, that means there are five or more handguns is as many cars. Does the new policy allow for conceal carry? I hope not, because here in Georgia, too many people have carry permits, who never took the time to know how to use a weapon. 

No, it does not unless you are asked to do so.

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2 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

How do you barricade a door that opens out from the room like every door in a LDS chapel?

In most chapels I have been in classroom doors open in. If I kept my cool I would stay beside the door blocked with chairs and attack anyone who came in. I also have keys so would lock myself and anyone else I could in Bishop or clerk office.

If I was on stand and shooter was up there I would hope I could attack. If I sat in the back as I often do I would try to shepherd people out and exit myself. Again, that assumes I keep my head, not a guaranteed thing. I have done it in physical fights but never been in a shooting situation.

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Was this before the recent change in policy that doesn't allow any guns in the building or premises?

Before and after. I was asked to do after a leadership meeting where the stake announced this policy and some law enforcement stake leaders talked about what do in various safety situations.

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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Before and after. I was asked to do after a leadership meeting where the stake announced this policy and some law enforcement stake leaders talked about what do in various safety situations.

Sounds like what a Texan would do, lol!

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13 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

It's funny how none of those "hide" protocols are possible in a LDS church building. No locks on doors, the doors open out into the hall and can't be barricaded, all of the doors have windows in a lot of churches, etc.

Well, it's certainly true that our buildings tend to be on the spartan side - not a lot of furniture to hide behind like what might be possible in an office space.

However, you seem to be forgetting a rather salient point about the classrooms: they are invariably on the first floor, and they all have windows which can be used for escape; some of the larger rooms (e.g., RS, Primary, FH Center, etc.) have full sized doors as well.  

The only rooms that don't have a point of egress are usually rooms that can be locked (e.g., bishop's office, clerk's office, utility rooms, library, etc.).

So 'running' seems to be a pretty viable option in most buildings, regardless of where you happen to find yourself.

 

Quote

The best course of action to take in an active shooter situation is to return fire but they decided to take that away and instead come out with guidelines that are not applicable to meetinghouses.

With respect, I disagree. The run > hide > fight protocol is the best approach for citizens to follow in these kinds of situations.

And, as I mentioned before, the guidelines very much do apply to our meetinghouses, so there's no reason to disregard them. 

 

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9 hours ago, Calm said:

Toss a bunch of the open metal folding chairs people were sitting on in front of them.  While someone could shoot through them, it would be difficult to climb over them and would obscure sight.

An excellent delaying tactic!  Good for maybe 5 seconds?  Surely the police officers will be there by then?

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46 minutes ago, longview said:

An excellent delaying tactic!  Good for maybe 5 seconds?  Surely the police officers will be there by then?

You think someone could get through a chaotic mass of metal chairs that would shift as weight is put on them in 5 seconds?  I was thinking an intelligent shooter wouldn't even try it as it might throw them off balance and leave them vulnerable.  But I am not experienced in such things and my imagining of such may be off.

I wonder how long it would take to make it big enough.  Of course during this time most would be streaming through the opposite doors so it would not be intended to delay until cops get there, but to give precious seconds to get out and away.

Edited by Calm

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