New active shooter guidelines from Presiding Bishopric

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, longview said:

A church is a church.  An LDS chapel is no more immune than any other sectarian church, jewish synagogue or moslem mosque.

But shooters aren't randomly choosing churches in most cases.  Iirc in the SC shooting, the shooter actually drove by others until he got to his target.

At this point and time it doesn't appear the Church or rather its congregations are being targeted, which is what pop tart was asking if I understood him.  This could easily change, of course.  The vulnerability is there.  Our buildings are apparently increasing in arson attacks, for example.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calm

[bsjkki]

This situation was not covered in our safety meeting. https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/13/20912693/provo-utah-latter-day-saint-mormon-meetinghouse-evacuated

PROVO — Eight people were taken to hospitals with carbon monoxide poisoning after a boiler problem sent a buildup of gas into a meetinghouse of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Sunday.

At 11:06 a.m., firefighters were called to the meetinghouse at 650 E. Stadium Ave. in Provo on a medical call. But while crews were on their way, they learned multiple people were sick and the church had “quite a bit” of carbon monoxide built up, said Provo fire spokeswoman Jeanie Atherton.

[longview]

5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

PROVO — Eight people were taken to hospitals with carbon monoxide poisoning after a boiler problem sent a buildup of gas into a meetinghouse of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Sunday.

Normal inspection of heating systems was overdue or neglected?

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/11/2019 at 5:59 PM, 10THAmendment said:

It's funny how none of those "hide" protocols are possible in a LDS church building. No locks on doors, the doors open out into the hall and can't be barricaded, all of the doors have windows in a lot of churches, etc. The best course of action to take in an active shooter situation is to return fire but they decided to take that away and instead come out with guidelines that are not applicable to meetinghouses.

Yeh, but the more martyrs, the more converts.  Hey, we got a gun-free zone over here!!  And plenty of willing martyrs!!

[randy]

On 10/12/2019 at 6:12 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Good, like I said, just because someone has a carry permit, does not mean they know what they are doing, or should have one. More importantly, my guess is that Stake Presidents and Bishops will read the letter, or just emphasize the part about not carrying weapons in Church strongly. But in so doing will say little or nothing about how to act in an “active shooter situation”, when people need to know what to do. My family knows that if in public and something starts, if I draw my weapon they are move down and away form the direction I am moving. Too often chaos works in favor of the shooter, when people frezze, or run all over each other, in all directions. So, I pray that they explain the words, “run, hide, and FIGHT”. If I am unarmed, my family also knows to stay with me and behind me at all times, as I will attempt to get them out, or act as cover. 

Sadly, we don’t give drivers licenses to those who cannot show their ability of the rules and laws, and pass a driving a car. But, to get a concealed carry permit, in most places you just have to pass a background check. You don’t have to show you can use the weapon properly, the laws in your State. You know, the “life and death stuff”.  

Papa...I can appreciate this, but it overlooks the very real possibility of someone who is carrying concealed...and does in fact know what he is doing, and has had the requisite training, and hopefully is in a position to thwart the attack.  I personally do not think its fair to paint the picture that the odds are greater of having someone who is carrying concealed acting like a bumbling/fumbling Barney Fife..when in my experience...the exact opposite has been the case.  The VAST majority of those who I've known over these many years... with  CCP's have, to a person, been responsible, level headed, and trained.

For me, I will abide by the counsel of my leaders, but I feel these "active shooter protocols" are woefully inadequate to protect anyone in an attack.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

28 minutes ago, randy said:

Papa...I can appreciate this, but it overlooks the very real possibility of someone who is carrying concealed...and does in fact know what he is doing, and has had the requisite training, and hopefully is in a position to thwart the attack.  I personally do not think its fair to paint the picture that the odds are greater of having someone who is carrying concealed acting like a bumbling/fumbling Barney Fife..when in my experience...the exact opposite has been the case.  The VAST majority of those who I've known over these many years... with  CCP's have, to a person, been responsible, level headed, and trained.

For me, I will abide by the counsel of my leaders, but I feel these "active shooter protocols" are woefully inadequate to protect anyone in an attack.

Randy, not sure what “picture” you are seeing? I was not attempting to paint anyone in either a positive or negative light. I am just speaking to issues of which I am very, very aware. I am retired law-enforcement, I carry concealed and openly, depending of the circumstances. I am also a gun collector, very pro-2nd Amendment, and was speaking to a number of different things, protection, policy, etc. as it relates to the Church’s new policy. I posted a number of things, so maybe a look at all of the posts, and how they unfolded would help “paint the entire picture”. That and my own personal experience, on and off the job, as it relates to guns, gun owners, and gun safety. Or maybe not? Your call, brother. 

[randy]

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Randy, not sure what “picture” you are seeing? I was not attempting to paint anyone in either a positive or negative light. I am just speaking to issues of which I am very, very aware. I am retired law-enforcement, I carry concealed and openly, depending of the circumstances. I am also a gun collector, very pro-2nd Amendment, and was speaking to a number of different things, protection, policy, etc. as it relates to the Church’s new policy. I posted a number of things, so maybe a look at all of the posts, and how they unfolded would help “paint the entire picture”. That and my own personal experience, on and off the job, as it relates to guns, gun owners, and gun safety. Or maybe not? Your call, brother. 

Papa.. this is good to know.  I am very aware of these issues as well.  Like you and I, anyone who has seen gun violence in the "raw" know in ways that others don't...just how important these "active shooter protocols" are. You have seen it, smelled it, heard it and touched it, and I know you know exactly what Iam referring to.   It is my responsibility to protect myself, my family and others as the situation dictates.  I believe you know in your heart..given all of your real world experience...that these protocols will do nothing to stop an active shooter.  I understand the position the Church is in, I just feel very conflicted, and I'm disappointed that I have been put into such a position to make that choice between protecting those I love and not protecting them.

There was another thread not that long ago where these same issues were discussed at length...some 15+ pages as I recall.  That being said, I will sustain my leaders in this change.

Papa...I also want you to know...although I don't post a lot,  I read everyday, and I have always appreciated and taken to heart most, if not all, of the thoughts you've shared.  I thank you!

Edited October 14, 2019 by randy

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

5 hours ago, randy said:

Papa.. this is good to know.  I am very aware of these issues as well.  Like you and I, anyone who has seen gun violence in the "raw" know in ways that others don't...just how important these "active shooter protocols" are. You have seen it, smelled it, heard it and touched it, and I know you know exactly what Iam referring to.   It is my responsibility to protect myself, my family and others as the situation dictates.  I believe you know in your heart..given all of your real world experience...that these protocols will do nothing to stop an active shooter.  I understand the position the Church is in, I just feel very conflicted, and I'm disappointed that I have been put into such a position to make that choice between protecting those I love and not protecting them.

The Police motto is “Protect and Serve”, but the more correct motto in most all circumstances is, “Investigate and Serve”. It is true, that they are charged with protecting us, but in many cases they are not, and will be too late getting there. Because of this, we as “Husbands (Wives), Fathers (Mother’s)”, etc., are the first responders, and the first line of defense. When it comes to “active shooters events”, we are the Police, the Army, and the Guardians of those whom we love, and for those unable to act. To quote a line from a movie, as it is with life, “the most committed wins”. Therefore, we must be all of these things, until the armed Police arrive, just as with a fire in our homes, we are the Fire Department, until the fire department arrives. “No greater love”, is “our” motto, as God’s people. As for Church, myself and my sons always have our a weapon in the car, and I am always near the door, for others reasons, but now this is a reason. But, as I pointed out, a good pocket knife in the hands of someone who knows how to act and act quickly, in a fraction of a second can change almost any outcome. 

ETA: In short, I agree with you statements, and your take of these issues. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[mnn727]

On 10/12/2019 at 10:10 PM, Calm said:

Newer or older building?

Old building

[bsjkki]

The carbon monoxide incident was much larger then first reported. Sixty treated, 24 needing to be treated In hyperbaric chambers and some of those will have lifelong effects. Scary incident. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/10/14/20914528/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-at-provo-church-serves-as-reminder-of-cold-weather-risks

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/11/2019 at 5:10 PM, Duncan said:

maybe the Church figures that based on almost no shootings in a LDS building that it probably won't happen. As I say when a shooting does happen would I trust 72 yr old sharpshooter Gary  with a gun working in the clerks office to get over to the primary room or YM/YW room when a shooting happens? I woudn't bet my life on that plan and the Church apparently doesn't either. In Canada we aren't allowed to have "open carry" thank heavens

It’s not the guys that do “open carry” that we worry about. It’s the lunatic with a murderous heart that causes the damage. A close friend lost her daughter to such a person in a Church parking lot. The lunatic father of another murderer publicly issued threats against a ward member (also a very close friend) who was the father of that murderer’s victim. How would you respond? While rare, this sort of stuff really happens. No policy protected those folks.

I have been in a real school lockdown. There is no way to describe the feelings of helplessness when you realize you have no way to defend yourself or those who depend on you.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/11/2019 at 5:27 PM, The Nehor said:

The instruction is to get to a classroom and barricade the door when our stake did active shooter training. If they break in, attack. A firearm is usually more a liability than a help in close range combat, particularly if the weapon is large.

Returning is not the best course of action unless you have a weapon and are trained very well and preferably have seen combat so you know you will not freeze or panic.

A small room with a window and full of frightened people is a shooting gallery.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/12/2019 at 8:22 AM, Calm said:

This vid shows how to jam a door that opens outward with a folding chair...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=15EuyCQnFWk

If handles are round, not an option though.

Here's another version with school chairs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB7Jzr6jRiw

Quick and easy devices for barricades...of course shooters can use them too unfortunately.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D0illqM9AAk

I wonder if doors will be made now with built in barricading systems.

None of this works unless you practice doing it.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A small room with a window and full of frightened people is a shooting gallery.

Safer then the hall. If you can exit the building instead even better. And as I said if someone comes in I will fight them and try to kill or incapacitate them or I might die or freeze up. There is no perfectly safe option. Having a gun would not change that

[randy]

Notwithstanding the fact that none of know "exactly" how we would respond in a life and death struggle, although with proper training..you would have much greater odds of responding appropriately....being able to deploy a lethal defense from 10 feet is MUCH preferred over having to deploy it from 10 inches.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Safer then the hall. If you can exit the building instead even better. And as I said if someone comes in I will fight them and try to kill or incapacitate them or I might die or freeze up. There is no perfectly safe option. Having a gun would not change that

In my school situation, I was in class with 60 orchestra kids in the rehearsal room. A student had been removed from a class for threatening behavior. He was being detained in the office when he bolted shouting he was getting a gun to shoot up the school.

We went into immediate lockdown, but nobody knew where he went. The supposition was that he had gone to his nearby home and was expected to return, but his location was unknown. We had no idea how much time we had to set up defensive barriers, and there was a lot of panic going on.

At that time the policy was shelter in place, so I locked the doors, turned out the lights, and hid the students in closets and practice rooms, which would be like shooting fish in a barrel had he come  into our room. We had one door that went into the parking lot, but there had been a recent attack were kids had been shot exiting a building into a field. If he were outside, that would have been bad. Another door  went into the hall, but it had large windows through which he had visible access to almost the entire band room. He also could have easily broken the windows and opened the crash bars to gain entry.

I armed myself with a steel snare drum stand and stood beside the hall door. If he entered the room through the doors I would try to break his arm or hit him in the head. We were essentially defenseless, as he could have easily taken me out through the door windows. That was a horrible feeling. 
 

All this happened before the first law enforcement arrived. He would have had time to do considerable damage. It took over two hours before he was finally captured near the campus and all clear was sounded. Fortunately he never got to his weapons, if he even had any, but we did not know that until it was all over. 
 

I learned several things. 1. We were defenseless. 2. Chaos and fear ruled. 3. Having a gun would have changed the situation dramatically. With my 9mm S&W, or better, my AR15, I could  have set up a defensible position viewing both doors. 4. For a significant time, the admin and law enforcement guys were of no use. 5. Policies can go out the window when it hits the fan. 6. It sucks to be defenseless. 7. Many of the staff brought golf clubs or hiking staves to school the next day. We were not allowed any other protection including pepper sprays. 8. We need realistic rules and policies to defend our schools, churches, and public buildings. No-weapons zones work only for folks who are already law-abiding responsible people.
 

At my junior high school, my class met on the stage in the commons. We were the first thing a perp would see on entering the school. Curtains are not good bullet stoppers. There were narrow steps down to the commons floor in front of the stage making us easy targets if 65 students would try to exit that way. The other exit was a single door in the back going out into the hall. 

When I pointed out our vulnerability to the admin, they said to make a run for the nearest classroom. Just how long would it take 65 kids with instruments to get through one door and run down a hall to a classroom? Plus, intruder instructions were to immediately lock all doors, cover all windows, and not open the doors under any circumstances until  all clear was sounded. In other words, the orchestra kids were doomed. The admin attitude was, “Oh well.” 

Best laid plans of mice and men often are just basura. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[longview]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

- - - And as I said if someone comes in I will fight them and try to kill or incapacitate them or I might die or freeze up. There is no perfectly safe option. Having a gun would not change that

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/#4908ee1299aa

"In particular, a 2013 study ordered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

Subsequently, I learned of a recent paper by Florida State University professor Gary Kleck, “What Do CDC’s Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?“

Kleck looked at some previously unpublished results from the CDC surveys conducted in the 1990s and concluded:

In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to six states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Estimates based on CDC’s surveys confirm estimates for the same sets of states based on data from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995). Extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole CDC’s survey data imply that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results."

Edited October 16, 2019 by longview

[Calm]

How effective were these defensive uses out of curiosity?

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, randy said:

Notwithstanding the fact that none of know "exactly" how we would respond in a life and death struggle, although with proper training..you would have much greater odds of responding appropriately....being able to deploy a lethal defense from 10 feet is MUCH preferred over having to deploy it from 10 inches.

Depends, I know how to fight with fists but have no training with a gun. I prefer ten inches if they have a firearm.

[longview]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

How effective were these defensive uses out of curiosity?

Mere display of the weapon has been sufficient in many cases to dissuade the perpetrator and cause him to flee.  There are multiple videos of homeowners firing on invaders as they frantically scramble out of the house and jump into waiting cars.  It causes many burglars to think twice before breaking in.

[randy]

"Depends, I know how to fight with fists but have no training with a gun. I prefer ten inches if they have a firearm."

That's the point...you will never get within 10".   I'm remembering that scene in one of those "Indiana Jones" movies where Indiana Jones is confronted by this really BIG guy with an even BIGGER sword. The bad guy makes some really threatening gestures with the sword, then Indiana Jones looks at him with a "really....seriously?" look on his face, and then just pulls out his pistol and shoots him.   That's pretty much what we're talking about here.  As the ole saying goes..."you don't bring a knife to a gun fight".  You WILL LOSE!  Every time!

 

I would just add...get a gun,  get trained....then get more training!   Then when you're done with that.....get more training!

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by randy

[sunstoned]

On 10/15/2019 at 1:28 AM, Bernard Gui said:

It’s not the guys that do “open carry” that we worry about. It’s the lunatic with a murderous heart that causes the damage. A close friend lost her daughter to such a person in a Church parking lot. The lunatic father of another murderer publicly issued threats against a ward member (also a very close friend) who was the father of that murderer’s victim. How would you respond? While rare, this sort of stuff really happens. No policy protected those folks.

I have been in a real school lockdown. There is no way to describe the feelings of helplessness when you realize you have no way to defend yourself or those who depend on you.

That is a terrible situation and feel bad that you had to go through it.  It is now more dangerous to live in modern U.S. cities than it was living in the old wild west.  I don't know what the solution to this type of violence is, but we as a society need to find a solution.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 10/15/2019 at 4:03 PM, Bernard Gui said:

In my school situation, I was in class with 60 orchestra kids in the rehearsal room. A student had been removed from a class for threatening behavior. He was being detained in the office when he bolted shouting he was getting a gun to shoot up the school.

We went into immediate lockdown, but nobody knew where he went. The supposition was that he had gone to his nearby home and was expected to return, but his location was unknown. We had no idea how much time we had to set up defensive barriers, and there was a lot of panic going on.

At that time the policy was shelter in place, so I locked the doors, turned out the lights, and hid the students in closets and practice rooms, which would be like shooting fish in a barrel had he come  into our room. We had one door that went into the parking lot, but there had been a recent attack were kids had been shot exiting a building into a field. If he were outside, that would have been bad. Another door  went into the hall, but it had large windows through which he had visible access to almost the entire band room. He also could have easily broken the windows and opened the crash bars to gain entry.

I armed myself with a steel snare drum stand and stood beside the hall door. If he entered the room through the doors I would try to break his arm or hit him in the head. We were essentially defenseless, as he could have easily taken me out through the door windows. That was a horrible feeling. 
 

All this happened before the first law enforcement arrived. He would have had time to do considerable damage. It took over two hours before he was finally captured near the campus and all clear was sounded. Fortunately he never got to his weapons, if he even had any, but we did not know that until it was all over. 
 

I learned several things. 1. We were defenseless. 2. Chaos and fear ruled. 3. Having a gun would have changed the situation dramatically. With my 9mm S&W, or better, my AR15, I could  have set up a defensible position viewing both doors. 4. For a significant time, the admin and law enforcement guys were of no use. 5. Policies can go out the window when it hits the fan. 6. It sucks to be defenseless. 7. Many of the staff brought golf clubs or hiking staves to school the next day. We were not allowed any other protection including pepper sprays. 8. We need realistic rules and policies to defend our schools, churches, and public buildings. No-weapons zones work only for folks who are already law-abiding responsible people.
 

At my junior high school, my class met on the stage in the commons. We were the first thing a perp would see on entering the school. Curtains are not good bullet stoppers. There were narrow steps down to the commons floor in front of the stage making us easy targets if 65 students would try to exit that way. The other exit was a single door in the back going out into the hall. 

When I pointed out our vulnerability to the admin, they said to make a run for the nearest classroom. Just how long would it take 65 kids with instruments to get through one door and run down a hall to a classroom? Plus, intruder instructions were to immediately lock all doors, cover all windows, and not open the doors under any circumstances until  all clear was sounded. In other words, the orchestra kids were doomed. The admin attitude was, “Oh well.” 

Best laid plans of mice and men often are just basura. 

To be honest this all sounds terrifying and terrible. Truly. It’s my understanding that about 20 people die per year in school shootings in the US every year. Honest question. If you put a gun in every classroom (or a significant percentage) around the country (3.8 million public school teachers), would this number go up or down do you think? How many students that otherwise wouldn’t have access to a gun might get a hold of their teachers? I live a somewhat charmed life, but the only victim of gun violence that I know was killed by her sister who was handling her dads “unloaded” firearm. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Back in the day when I was thinking about getting a gun, I did a lot of research.  Lots of opinions out there, lots of studies about this or that.  One of the more useful data points, was a thread on a gun board called something like "why do you carry".  The thread had been active for 5-6 years , like 800 posts from 800 different people.  I spent a few weeks and read all the stories.  And a hefty chunk of them started to sound a lot alike.   Variations on a theme: "I was once [in danger/threatened/attacked/raped/hurt/almost killed/witnessed a brutal attack], and I was utterly helpless to do anything about it.  I can't begin to explain how bad it felt to be helpless/how desperate I was to find a weapon to defend myself.  I survived and vowed to never be defenseless again."  Probably over half the answers was a variation on that theme. 

The rest were a random smattering of "My parent(s) taught me" or "yay guns pew pew pew" or "had cops/military role models" or "was a cop/soldier, and it stuck with me after I left the service" or "gotta be a patriot and defend my rights".   But the "never again"-type posts had an impact on me.

[LoudmouthMormon]

10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honest question. If you put a gun in every classroom (or a significant percentage) around the country (3.8 million public school teachers), would this number go up or down do you think? How many students that otherwise wouldn’t have access to a gun might get a hold of their teachers? I live a somewhat charmed life, but the only victim of gun violence that I know was killed by her sister who was handling her dads “unloaded” firearm. 

Something to think about - depending on the state in which you live, you might be surrounded wherever you go by people legally carrying.  Here in Colorado, upwards of a full 8-10% of the residents have permits.  They're everywhere you go, and have been since the '90's.   The more long-term studies that are completed and released, the more we see what happens and what doesn't happen.  What happens way too often, is kids find the guns their idiot parents leave lying around/in a drawer/in a box in the closet/friend's house, and they shoot themselves or their friend.   Another thing we see on occasion, are stories about someone using the toilet and their gun falls out of their holster or pocket and goes skittering across five stalls and scares the crap out of everyone.  What we pretty much never see, is a good guy legally carrying get disarmed by someone else, good or bad, kid or otherwise. 

It would be stupid to "put a gun in every classroom", because guns can be found.  But if willing teachers/staff stepped up and armed themselves, the answer to your question is "almost zero students would get a hold of their teacher's gun".   Because the mindset is "my gun is only one of four places.  In the gun safe, in pieces being cleaned, secured on my person in a holster, or in my hands being used. There is no fifth place."

Edited October 17, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon