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Duncan

Gathering of Israel and Immigration

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

TV and internet on cellphones ;)

That will be one heck of a news story.

"Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion." (Isaiah 52:8)

They shall see i[phone] to i[pad] (get it)  :)


 

Edited by InCognitus
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5 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think that is a general misunderstanding but I don't really want to get into it now.  I'll just say what people thought would happen in Independence happened in the Kirtland temple where that revelation was received and those keys were delegated.

I understand and accept what you are saying about this.

I still wonder about that.  How will everybody see him, I wonder. Will they actually see him or maybe just what he is causing to happen?  Kinda like how "in his name" refers to all things he has or does by his power,  Not doubting, just still wondering what that really means.

That still leaves this statement by President Kimball:

“Together you (the Lamanites) and we shall build in the spectacular city of New Jerusalem the temple to which our Redeemer will come.  Your hands with ours, also those of Jacob, will place the foundation stones, raise the walls, and roof the magnificent structure.  Perhaps your artistic hands will paint the temple and decorate it with a master’s touch, and together we shall dedicate to our Creator Lord the most beautiful of all temples ever built in his name”

How will everyone see Him? No idea, but I trust it will work and it is my belief that all will see Him, not just the influence of what He does and I do not think it will be because He is being interviewed on cable news either.

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On 10/8/2019 at 2:25 PM, Duncan said:

We read in the scriptures about the Gathering of Israel, i.e 3 Nephi 5:24-26 among a host other others and certaintly our leaders are talking about the Gathering. I know Elder McConkie said in the early 1970's that Mexico was for the Mexicans, Japan was for the Japanese,Ireland is for the Irish etc. I get all that but does that mean they discourage immigration? In our ward we have received a ton of Brazillian families who came here for economic reasons and I think it's fantastic, we really need them. Do these scriptures and leaders encourage immigration or discourage it?

It depends on what you mean by "discourage" and "immigration".

Immigrant means "a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country", but at least in the US, immigrant, refugee, asylum seeker, illegal alien, unaccompanied minor and other terms have different legal definitions. 

Working with an organization that helps many of these people, as well as the homeless and abused, I can tell you the church and other churches support those who are in need. It provides service missionaries and other means to do this.

And we are not the only church discussing the gathering of Israel where immigration is concerned.

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Well, somehow we have to get 144,000 high priests, 12,000 , from each of the 12 tribes to the area. First we have to identify each tribe and then get 12,000 men ( I assume ) from each. With the new rules, making them all high priests just got harder. Will immigration aid that effort?

Fly in ointment ?? 

 

Edited by strappinglad

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On 10/9/2019 at 10:18 AM, CV75 said:

I think it means the same thing, but a spiritual gathering is just as literal in its sphere, and this is also part of gathering of the Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes. As well as building Zion (the New Jerusalem) on the American continent and having a Millennium.

I believe the early Saints considered the spiritual gathering to be where converts congregated to a central location and the literal gathering was  seen as the Native Americans relocating to a specific location like the Indian Territories. These events, along with the appearance of the Book of Mormon were taken at that time as signs that the Second Coming was imminent.

 

I do not believe we that is how we view the gathering of Israel today and certainly the thought of actually gathering together the physical descendants of the 10 tribes would probably include much of the worlds population at this point given how DNA diffuses. I mean, if we are going to argue that it is no longer possible to identify a Lamanite due to diffusion, how much more difficult would it be to identify a descendent of the lost ten tribes?

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1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I believe the early Saints considered the spiritual gathering to be where converts congregated to a central location and the literal gathering was  seen as the Native Americans relocating to a specific location like the Indian Territories. These events, along with the appearance of the Book of Mormon were taken at that time as signs that the Second Coming was imminent.

I do not believe we that is how we view the gathering of Israel today and certainly the thought of actually gathering together the physical descendants of the 10 tribes would probably include much of the worlds population at this point given how DNA diffuses. I mean, if we are going to argue that it is no longer possible to identify a Lamanite due to diffusion, how much more difficult would it be to identify a descendent of the lost ten tribes?

Yes, I understand that is how the earlier saints saw things. But the spiritual underpinning of all the biblical and restoration prophecies is that spiritual phenomena (foretold or generated in the present circumstance) are fulfilled as literal events. This a message in the Book of Mormon that we as a community have had 200 years to absorb (all things are spiritual). This is my personal understanding today.

I think identifying descendants (i.e. family history, including DNA studies and related technologies) is a form of gathering on both sides of the veil, as is the dynamic of turning the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers*. Israel is a matter of both lineage and adoption as well.

* The Book of Mormon and Old Testament use the singular “heart” and the post-restoration D&C uses the plural “hearts.” Perhaps “heart” is for the gathered condition and “hearts” refers to the scattered and gathering conditions. Hard to say which is first and which is last (they seem to interchange in gospel principles), but the sealing of separate family histories into “a whole and complete and perfect union” seems to be what is prophesied in the D&C. Tribal assignments would still apply for the priesthood order (land, kingdom and ecclesiastical organizations), with restored representation for each in the land of Jerusalem, and lands of inheritances replicated for them throughout the rest of the earth as well.

Edited by CV75

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On 10/8/2019 at 6:01 PM, rpn said:

Yes, the Church has officially told members to stay in their countries and strengthen the church there.

Does this mean the church believes 2 Nephi 1:5 is no longer God's plan?

But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above
all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my
seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should
be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord
.”

Thanks,
Jim

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7 minutes ago, theplains said:

Does this mean the church believes 2 Nephi 1:5 is no longer God's plan?

But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above
all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my
seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should
be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord
.”

Thanks,
Jim

I guess this is evidence you haven’t read the rest of the Book of Mormon, and that’s the reason why you don’t understand the actual meaning and application of the verse you quoted?

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On 10/9/2019 at 8:02 PM, The Nehor said:

That still leaves this statement by President Kimball:

“Together you (the Lamanites) and we shall build in the spectacular city of New Jerusalem the temple to which our Redeemer will come.  Your hands with ours, also those of Jacob, will place the foundation stones, raise the walls, and roof the magnificent structure.  Perhaps your artistic hands will paint the temple and decorate it with a master’s touch, and together we shall dedicate to our Creator Lord the most beautiful of all temples ever built in his name”

That doesn't specify which city is or will be the city of New Jerusalem, though.  And right now  think Salt Lake City has a better chance of being that city than some city in Missouri.

On 10/9/2019 at 8:02 PM, The Nehor said:

How will everyone see Him? No idea, but I trust it will work and it is my belief that all will see Him, not just the influence of what He does and I do not think it will be because He is being interviewed on cable news either.

Okay, I see it as a maybe and I can understand that point of view.  I'm mainly just wondering about the logistics of how that would work out, considering that he would be coming down here to a particular spot of land and some people will be on the other side of the planet, or at one of the poles north or south.  Maybe we'll see him by video or maybe he'll just take a really long time to come down here so that while the planet is spinning everybody would be able to see him, if they are standing outside, and the blind people are no longer blind anymore.  And everyone in some prison cell is set free so they can go outside and see him too.  I dunno.  I just still wonder about what that person meant when he said that every eye shall see him.

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On 10/9/2019 at 12:14 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and that takes place at the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, Israel.

The great Jewish:  "Oops!"  moment.  Though my sense is that there are a significant number of Jews who have taken a second favorable look at the Jesus-as-Messiah claim.

Edited by blarsen
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1 hour ago, blarsen said:

The great Jewish:  "Oops!"  moment.  Though my sense is that there are a significant number of Jews who have taken a second favorable look at the Jesus-as-Messiah claim.

Correct.

NIV Romans 11:16-21,23-26,28-29 (cf. Jacob 5 - 6),

Quote

". . . if the root is holy, so are the branches.  If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.  You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”  Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. . . . .  if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.  After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!  I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited:  Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. . . . As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."

KJV Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

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On 10/10/2019 at 9:49 PM, teddyaware said:

I guess this is evidence you haven’t read the rest of the Book of Mormon, and that’s the reason why you don’t understand the actual meaning and application of the verse you quoted?

What do you mean?

Jim

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9 hours ago, theplains said:

What do you mean?

Jim

It appears to me that you mistakenly believe the Book of Mormon teaches all Latter-Day Saints are expected to gather to the American promised land, when the fact of the matter is the Book of Mormon testifies that, by divine design, the saints of God of the latter-days will be scattered throughout all the nations of the earth.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. (1 Nephi 14)

Edited by teddyaware
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23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It appears to me that you mistakenly believe the Book of Mormon teaches all Latter-Day Saints are expected to gather to the American promised land, when the fact of the matter is the Book of Mormon testifies that, by divine design, the saints of God of the latter-days will be scattered throughout all the nations of the earth.

That's the impression that I get when I read the following:

"It is essential in this dispensation that Ephraim stand in his  place at the head, exercising the birthright
in Israel which was given to him by direct revelation. Therefore, Ephraim must be gathered first to
prepare the way, through the gospel and the  priesthood, for the rest of the tribes of Israel when the time
comes for them to be gathered to Zion".

"The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south, and is described by the  prophets, who declare
that it is the Zion where the mountain of the  Lord should be, and that it should be in the center of the
land.  When elders shall take up and examine the old prophecies in the Bible,  they will see it" (Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 362; History of the Church, 6:318-19).

Jim

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39 minutes ago, theplains said:

That's the impression that I get when I read the following:

"It is essential in this dispensation that Ephraim stand in his  place at the head, exercising the birthright
in Israel which was given to him by direct revelation. Therefore, Ephraim must be gathered first to
prepare the way, through the gospel and the  priesthood, for the rest of the tribes of Israel when the time
comes for them to be gathered to Zion".

"The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south, and is described by the  prophets, who declare
that it is the Zion where the mountain of the  Lord should be, and that it should be in the center of the
land.  When elders shall take up and examine the old prophecies in the Bible,  they will see it" (Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 362; History of the Church, 6:318-19).

Jim

There indeed will be a large gathering of Israel to the American Zion. But that does not negate the fact that, as the Book of Mormon plainly testified, the saints of the latter-days will also be spread all over the face of the earth, and for a very good reason — that the the Lord’s commandment to preach the restored gospel to every nation, kingdom,, tongue and people will be fulfilled. 

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Deleted

 

Edited by teddyaware

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