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Duncan

Gathering of Israel and Immigration

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Posted (edited)

We read in the scriptures about the Gathering of Israel, i.e 3 Nephi 5:24-26 among a host other others and certaintly our leaders are talking about the Gathering. I know Elder McConkie said in the early 1970's that Mexico was for the Mexicans, Japan was for the Japanese,Ireland is for the Irish etc. I get all that but does that mean they discourage immigration? In our ward we have received a ton of Brazillian families who came here for economic reasons and I think it's fantastic, we really need them. Do these scriptures and leaders encourage immigration or discourage it?

Edited by Duncan
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Yes, the Church has officially told members to stay in their countries and strengthen the church there.   And church schools sometimes recruit in other countries where educational opportunity is limited.

And the church has never approved of or encouraged illegal immigration (though it has done lots to support members here even when church leaders are aware that someone might be illegal).

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54 minutes ago, Duncan said:

We read in the scriptures about the Gathering of Israel, i.e 3 Nephi 5:24-26 among a host other others and certaintly our leaders are talking about the Gathering. I know Elder McConkie said in the early 1970's that Mexico was for the Mexicans, Japan was for the Japanese,Ireland is for the Irish etc. I get all that but does that mean they discourage immigration? In our ward we have received a ton of Brazillian families who came here for economic reasons and I think it's fantastic, we really need them. Do these scriptures and leaders encourage immigration or discourage it?

I think when that day comes, where the 10 lost tribes make themselves known, the world will be in such chaos, not visas will be needed. As far as immigration, the United States is a Nation born of immigrants, and we welcome all who come legally. I say legally, because in the current debate going on in society, many forget the Article of Faith, that addresses, “obedience to the laws, in the lands in which all Saints live”. 

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the most recent statement of which I am aware was President Nelson's talk where he commended members for helping refugees to find new homes in new places.

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Posted (edited)

The Gathering

Both ancient and modern prophets, from Enoch to Joseph Smith, have foretold that the Lord’s covenant people would be gathered again in a future day. (Read: 4 Prophets Who Have Seen Our Day.)

The gathering is a prelude to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The gathering is part of the Restoration and has priesthood keys associated with it, which were restored when Moses delivered them to Joseph Smith (see D&C 110:11).

Though the Lord’s people may sometimes be asked to gather to a particular place, people today generally are gathered when they accept the gospel, receive ordinances, and make covenants.

All people can be gathered to Israel, either by direct descent or by adoption, which happens when they are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Those who have been baptized can later receive a patriarchal blessing, which declares their lineage in a tribe of Israel.

The Book of Mormon is written to “the remnant of the house of Israel” and to “the Jew and Gentile” (Book of Mormon title page) and is a major instrument of the gathering in the last days.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/youth/article/what-is-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

Edited by Ahab

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An excellent presentation that addresses a lot of the common questions on this topic is here (video only - youtube):   Joseph F. McConkie, 2008 ED Week - The Gathering of Israel.  I like the answer he gives to the question about how the lost ten tribes are "lost" (see the 29:05 mark in the video).

As for the 10 lost tribes making themselves known, it seems to me that this is already happening in the sense that they are being gathered to the stakes of Zion throughout the world, and they are "made known" in the patriarchal blessings given to those individuals.    In the June 3, 2018 Worldwide Devotional for Youth message from President Nelson and his wife Wendy (full text here), Sister Nelson talked about how she observed representatives from all of the twelve tribes of Israel in a group of women she spoke to in Moscow (she asked them to stand in a roll call by tribe, based on the lineage declared in their patriarchal blessing).   She also confessed later in the same talk, "I have since learned that I probably should not have asked those sisters to identify themselves by lineage because patriarchal blessings are sacred and the lineage declared in them is personal."   

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The general counsel is to build up the church where you are. Individuals and families may decide differently based on perceived opportunities or even revelation. In areas in conflict fleeing may be the best option.

The church does not encourage illegal immigration but it takes no action against those who do.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, rpn said:

Yes, the Church has officially told members to stay in their countries and strengthen the church there.

Europe is dying a rapidly accelerating death right now, so that sheltering in place may not mean much.  Caucasian Europeans (only nominally Christian) are not reproducing, while the Muslim immigrants are.  Within a generation or two, Europe will be Muslim -- which may not be good for any sort of Christians, nor for Western Civilization generally -- including democracy.  LDS temples and chapels there may become targets.  See Douglas Murray, The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam (Bloomsbury Continuum, 2017).

Quote

   And church schools sometimes recruit in other countries where educational opportunity is limited.

And the church has never approved of or encouraged illegal immigration (though it has done lots to support members here even when church leaders are aware that someone might be illegal).

The world is going to see major dislocations in areas subject to ocean surge and flooding.  Many Pacific island people will have to immigrate somewhere, many of them LDS.  Whole countries will become uninhabitable, such as Bangladesh and Holland..

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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10 hours ago, Duncan said:

We read in the scriptures about the Gathering of Israel, i.e 3 Nephi 5:24-26 among a host other others and certaintly our leaders are talking about the Gathering. I know Elder McConkie said in the early 1970's that Mexico was for the Mexicans, Japan was for the Japanese,Ireland is for the Irish etc. I get all that but does that mean they discourage immigration? .................................

In pioneer days, Zion needed lots of immigrants.  Now, not so much.  So, our leaders now emphasize staying in place and building up the Church there.

However, everyone forgets in these discussions the rapid and extraordinary gathering of Israel to Palestine.  Apostle Orson Hyde actually went to Palestine and dedicated it to that final, crucial gathering of the Jews in 1841.  What does that mean?

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15 hours ago, Duncan said:

We read in the scriptures about the Gathering of Israel, i.e 3 Nephi 5:24-26 among a host other others and certaintly our leaders are talking about the Gathering. I know Elder McConkie said in the early 1970's that Mexico was for the Mexicans, Japan was for the Japanese,Ireland is for the Irish etc. I get all that but does that mean they discourage immigration? In our ward we have received a ton of Brazillian families who came here for economic reasons and I think it's fantastic, we really need them. Do these scriptures and leaders encourage immigration or discourage it?

I think they encourage the gathering of Israel no matter how a person comes across the opportunity to receive the Gospel and becomes part of that. People are encouraged to build the stakes of Zion wherever it is that they accept and live the Gospel. Sometimes living at all, allowing people to live the Gospel, requires a relocation. Then people are encouraged to stay put once they are established spiritually and temporally, unless otherwise directed by the inspiration they receive with the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

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8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Europe is dying a rapidly accelerating death right now, so that sheltering in place may not mean much.  Caucasian Europeans (only nominally Christian) are not reproducing, while the Muslim immigrants are.  Within a generation or two, Europe will be Muslim -- which may not be good for any sort of Christians, nor for Western Civilization generally -- including democracy.  LDS temples and chapels there may become targets.  See Douglas Murray, The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam (Bloomsbury Continuum, 2017).

The world is going to see major dislocations in areas subject to ocean surge and flooding.  Many Pacific island people will have to immigrate somewhere, many of them LDS.  Whole countries will become uninhabitable, such as Bangladesh and Holland..

No, demographics do not shift that quickly. Even if the current population trends continue (and there is no guarantee Muslim birth rates will stay higher) it will be centuries before they are a majority. People talk about a tenth of the population being Muslim by 2050.

If climate change bears out yes, there will be mass relocations.

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Posted (edited)
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10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory

In this context, what does the word "literal" mean, and does it mean something different to us today than it did when this was originally published in 1842?

Edited by CA Steve

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19 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

What does the word "literal" mean, and does it mean something different to us today than it did when this was originally published in 1842?

It means "not figurative", "as written" etc. It means the same today but annoyingly enough has also gained a second meaning of "figurative" in some usage.

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I believe that gathering will be 1)  a return in some ways  to what was taught by our early missionaries ( e.g. Wilford Woodruff ) that Zion would be a  place of  physical as well as  spiritual  refuge and safety on this continent,  (though I  hope  Robert F. Smith's dire predictions about Holland and most of Europe are not correct) ;  2) the gathering which includes legal and illegal migration is a fulfilllment of prophecy; 3) the immigrants who join the church  will be a great blessing to the Church  - a leavening agent  in a loaf that  has been predominantly gentile  - and  that the descendants of Lehi will ultimately be the salvation of the Church as the gentiles continue to grow in pride and reject the gospel. 

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In pioneer days, Zion needed lots of immigrants.  Now, not so much.  So, our leaders now emphasize staying in place and building up the Church there.

However, everyone forgets in these discussions the rapid and extraordinary gathering of Israel to Palestine.  Apostle Orson Hyde actually went to Palestine and dedicated it to that final, crucial gathering of the Jews in 1841.  What does that mean?

I think one of the things it means is that immigration to Palestine by those of Abraham's lineage has happened repeatedly throughout history but notably for us since it was dedicated (rededicated?) for the gathering of Israel in the last days.

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1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

In this context, what does the word "literal" mean, and does it mean something different to us today than it did when this was originally published in 1842?

I think it means the same thing, but a spiritual gathering is just as literal in its sphere, and this is also part of gathering of the Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes. As well as building Zion (the New Jerusalem) on the American continent and having a Millennium.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

... everyone forgets in these discussions the rapid and extraordinary gathering of Israel to Palestine.  Apostle Orson Hyde actually went to Palestine and dedicated it to that final, crucial gathering of the Jews in 1841.  What does that mean?

I think the "final, crucial gathering of the Jews" refers to the gathering of those of Israel who will be at the spot of land near where our Lord will descend from heaven in what is called his "second coming", when they will see the wound marks in his hands and feet while asking him where those came from.  When those of Israel will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they have been waiting for, not realizing until then that he was the one who had come during the time he was here for his mortal ministry.

Edited by Ahab
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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

No, demographics do not shift that quickly. Even if the current population trends continue (and there is no guarantee Muslim birth rates will stay higher) it will be centuries before they are a majority. People talk about a tenth of the population being Muslim by 2050.......................

Your figures are way off.  Europe currently has a rapidly growing Muslim population of 26 million.  The non-Muslim population is not growing, and large numbers of Jews have now left Europe to escape persecution by Muslims.  Pew research estimates that Western Europe will be anywhere from 16 to 19 % Muslim by 2050.  The Vienna Institute of Demography projects that, by 2050, a majority of Austrian youth under 15 will be Muslim.  These are vast and major shifts in a very short period.  It is already unacceptable for European women to walk anywhere alone, nor to be dressed as they used to.  The Enlightenment is already dead in Europe, and European culture is moribund (a lot of that is war guilt).  Not much reason for Muslims to respect it, when even traditional Europeans don't any longer respect it.  As in Japan, the original inhabitants are dying off.  Unlike Japan, they are being replaced.  It is no accident that Europeans are not interested in the LDS Church.  Most of them don't believe in God anyhow.  Why bother.

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37 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think the "final, crucial gathering of the Jews" refers to the gathering of those of Israel who will be at the spot of land near where our Lord will descend from heaven in what is called his "second coming", when they will see the wound marks in his hands and feet while asking him where those came from.  When those of Israel will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they have been waiting for, not realizing until then that he was the one who had come during the time he was here for his mortal ministry.

Yes, and that takes place at the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, Israel.

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1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and that takes place at the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, Israel.

Yes, so there are 2 gatherings of Israel that we are talking about when we talk about the literal gathering of Israel.  The gathering you are talking about where some of Israel will be gathered near the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, and the gathering I mentioned in my earlier post:

The Gathering

Both ancient and modern prophets, from Enoch to Joseph Smith, have foretold that the Lord’s covenant people would be gathered again in a future day. (Read: 4 Prophets Who Have Seen Our Day.)

The gathering is a prelude to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The gathering is part of the Restoration and has priesthood keys associated with it, which were restored when Moses delivered them to Joseph Smith (see D&C 110:11).

Though the Lord’s people may sometimes be asked to gather to a particular place, people today generally are gathered when they accept the gospel, receive ordinances, and make covenants.

All people can be gathered to Israel, either by direct descent or by adoption, which happens when they are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Those who have been baptized can later receive a patriarchal blessing, which declares their lineage in a tribe of Israel.

The Book of Mormon is written to “the remnant of the house of Israel” and to “the Jew and Gentile” (Book of Mormon title page) and is a major instrument of the gathering in the last days.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/youth/article/what-is-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think the "final, crucial gathering of the Jews" refers to the gathering of those of Israel who will be at the spot of land near where our Lord will descend from heaven in what is called his "second coming", when they will see the wound marks in his hands and feet while asking him where those came from.  When those of Israel will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they have been waiting for, not realizing until then that he was the one who had come during the time he was here for his mortal ministry.

Most in our faith believe that the appearance of Jesus in Israel is separate from the general appearing the whole world will witness.

There are four appearinga:

1. Coming to the temple, specifically the one in Missouri but may also include visits to others.

2. Meeting at Adam-ondi-Ahman where the dispensation heads give their reports to Michael and Michael then returns his delegated lordship over the Earth back to Christ.

3. Appearance at Jerusalem on Mount of Olives to save a remnant of the Jews.

4. General appearing that all will see and the general death for all of those unable to endure the Millenium. Also kicks off the general first resurrection for those who did not get granted an early pass beforehand.

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7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Most in our faith believe that the appearance of Jesus in Israel is separate from the general appearing the whole world will witness.

There are four appearinga:

1. Coming to the temple, specifically the one in Missouri but may also include visits to others.

I think that is a general misunderstanding but I don't really want to get into it now.  I'll just say what people thought would happen in Independence happened in the Kirtland temple where that revelation was received and those keys were delegated.

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

2. Meeting at Adam-ondi-Ahman where the dispensation heads give their reports to Michael and Michael then returns his delegated lordship over the Earth back to Christ.

3. Appearance at Jerusalem on Mount of Olives to save a remnant of the Jews.

I understand and accept what you are saying about this.

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

4. General appearing that all will see and the general death for all of those unable to endure the Millenium. Also kicks off the general first resurrection for those who did not get granted an early pass beforehand.

I still wonder about that.  How will everybody see him, I wonder. Will they actually see him or maybe just what he is causing to happen?  Kinda like how "in his name" refers to all things he has or does by his power,  Not doubting, just still wondering what that really means.

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4 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think that is a general misunderstanding but I don't really want to get into it now.  I'll just say what people thought would happen in Independence happened in the Kirtland temple where that revelation was received and those keys were delegated.

I understand and accept what you are saying about this.

I still wonder about that.  How will everybody see him, I wonder. Will they actually see him or maybe just what he is causing to happen?  Kinda like how "in his name" refers to all things he has or does by his power,  Not doubting, just still wondering what that really means.

TV and internet on cellphones ;)

That will be one heck of a news story.

"Alien being lands in Jerusalem amid blinding light"

Edited by mfbukowski
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36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

TV and internet on cellphones ;)

That will be one heck of a news story.

"Alien being lands in Jerusalem amid blinding light"

We are use to getting up to the minute news 24x7x365.  If/when an event like this happens, word would get out very quickly.

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